Settle This V: Commas
February 9th, 2009 | by TJ |Dear Internet,
I need you to help me inform BRK that no matter what archaic comma usage he can dig up on Wikipedia, his attachment and overuse of said punctuation is incorrect and intolerable.
So this morning I received my usual BRK EA email, with a post he’d written entitled as follows:
The Patch to Patch the Patch, Patch
The following conversation ensued.
TJ: That comma in your title is inappropriate.
BRK: It is perfectly placed, as it forces a pause.
TJ: You can’t just place commas where you want people to pause. There are rules. And I’m posting it. And I won’t have faulty commas posted under my name.
However, I would be agreeable to The “Patch to Patch the Patch” Patch.
BRK: I do hereby claim the Emphasis and Clarity rule of commas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_(punctuation)
TJ: I hereby claim that I don’t care what you managed to google!
The Patch to Patch the Patch Patch
or
The “Patch to Patch the Patch” Patch
BRK: Since you hold the power in terms of posting my post, I will accept the
quotation marks.
However.
Your claim is hereby denied, as my commas are deliciously, beautifully,
and ecologically perfect.
What I ask of you here, Internet, is use of your common sense. Of course, I am obviously correct. However, should the fact that BRK is able to dig up a little used and frankly, hideously ugly and obviously inappropriate comma rule weigh into my decision to post his works unaltered?
Setting aside the Wikipedia article and using only what you know to be good, right and proper in all things comma, please assist me in telling BRK that he is once again completely and totally wrong.
If you must, however, consider the Wikipedia article, allow me to offer my own source as well:
I quote Rule 11 from the page linked above:
Remember, too, that a pause in reading is not always a reliable reason to use a comma. Try not to use a comma unless you can apply a specific rule from this page to do so.
So, what say you, Internet?
Sure to be vindicated,
TJ
By Asara on Feb 9, 2009
Now, when it comes to things like this, generally I would rule out Wikipedia as an ultimate source for rules on what should or should not be done. The reason is simple, it can be edited, and may have been written by someone who did not know exactly what they were talking about. As much as I love BRK and his blog, I have to rule in favor of TJ and the quotations on this one. Sorry BRK!
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By Game Dame on Feb 9, 2009
I’m with you, TJ. TOO MANY COMMAS OUT THERE! When I first read BRK’s headline, I thought he was talking to someone named Patch. (See the same usage in my first sentence in this comment.) So forcing the “pause” in reading is irrelevant if meaning is sacrificed. People use WAY too many commas in general. The usage I hate most is when people put commas on both sides of the word “but.”
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By Stop on Feb 9, 2009
I’m with you, Teej. A comma is not used to force a pause. A comma should be used where a natural pause would be.
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By Kelly on Feb 9, 2009
BRK is incorrect. You are correct, you are vindicated.
In this case, BRK is using the comma as a curled fist in the face. While it does, indeed, imply a pause, it doesn’t follow any actual rule of grammar I’ve ever encountered.
Still… not nearly as annoying as the misuse of the apostrophe.
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By Maebius on Feb 9, 2009
I will have to side with TJ on this. Not merely because I’m posting this comment on HER blog, but because I mis-read the intent of the BRK title if it contains a comma. I had to take a minor mental-step and realize what would have been immediately obvious when the quotation-embraced title was used.
Go TJ!
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By Adlib on Feb 9, 2009
I love all things grammatical! I agree with you, TJ. I am a fan of BRK, but I see too many misuses of commas throughout my typical day so I must post my agreement with you.
I just want people to stop putting spaces before AND after their commas. Makes me want to hurt them.
The way BRK used it implied that he’s speaking to a patch by its first name (hee). I know the tendency is to put a comma there to also avoid confusion, but it’s not right!
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By Andris on Feb 9, 2009
I have to agree that BRK’s use of a comma confused my reading of the sentence; I thought the last “Patch” was a play on “Natch”, or maybe an imperative to hurry.
The Patch to Patch the Patch, Patch
The “Patch to Patch the Patch” Patch
If I were to put parenthesis in each sentence to group actors and descriptions into smaller groups, it would be:
(The Patch to (Patch the Patch)), Patch
(The (“Patch to Patch the (Patch)”) Patch)
Note that the first first sentence implies two levels of patching; the latter implies three levels. (e.g. the first implies that 3.0.9 is patching 3.0.8a which was rushed to cover 3.0.8, while the second implies that 3.09 is fixing 3.0.8a which was intended to repair 3.0.8 fixes on 3.0.5.)
Oh, and if you use a word enough times, it loses its meaning. Patch Patch Patch Patch Patch Patch Patch Patch Patch.
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By Grimmtooth on Feb 9, 2009
Most modems do in fact use the comma to denote a pause when dialing, as in “9,18001234567″ to indicate that the modem should pause long enough for an outside line to come available when dialing out from a PBX system.
In case this has escaped anyone, we are not modems.
Correct or not, that comma is UGly with a capital UG.
We may not see eye to eye on the whole Kit Kat thing, but I gotcher back on this comma thing, foshizzle.
(Yeah I totally foshizzled the kitteh)
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By KC on Feb 9, 2009
I am a copy editor in real life. I am paid to correct things including misused commas.
Your title was right, his was not.
Sorry, BRK. :-(
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By Seph on Feb 9, 2009
Your both wrong. I think it should be
The Patch to Patch the Patch… Patch
Brks way was ok but not the best. Your way was meh. Brk’s was better.
My way implies he gave a second thought to what the last word would be but patch was the only thing would fit.
You both lose!
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By TJ on Feb 9, 2009
@Seph Your way would be correct if that was his intent, to imply that he didn’t know the last word. However, that wasn’t his intent so the argument comes down to comma rules.
Also, one should not use punctuation to “imply.” Punctuation is governed by rules that are not especially flexible.
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By Kusamoto on Feb 9, 2009
Clarity and usage is not the be-all, end-all of proper punctuation. I edit for a living and I can tell you that AP Stylebook, Gregg’s, and Chicago Manual of Style all agree in your favor.
HOWEVER…per my research, your comma usage in the last two paragraphs of your post is also incorrect. Observe…
“However, should the fact that BRK is able to dig up a little used and frankly, hideously ugly and obviously inappropriate comma rule weigh into my decision to post his works unaltered?”
There should be a comma after the first “and.” ex: “..a little used and, frankly, hideously ugly…”
Second sentence: “…using only what you know to be good, right and proper…” Per AP Stylebook, series always need to end with a comma so there should be a comma after “right.” Gregg’s and Chicago argue with the AP, but the AP is right; they control the news. They also control the horizontal, the vertical, and the diagonal.
I’ll let the adverbs slide…this time. Normally I’d say to you what I’d say to my writers: The road to Hell is paved with adverbs, and I shall shout it from the tallest mountaintop. Does it end in “-ly?” Cool; get rid of it.
End of stogy old man punctuation and style diatribe. :-D
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By Myze on Feb 9, 2009
Since you posted it your way anyway, I don’t think it matters at this point, however I would like to say that the last “patch” is gratuitous. It really has no function in the title other than to be a fourth instance of the word “patch.”
For the record I agree with you, but it makes about as much sense as “The ‘Cat to Eat the Mouse’ Cat.”
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By anna on Feb 9, 2009
A comma is a grammatical punctuation mark that has specific functions. Your title is correct, and BRK’s is incorrect.
(And yes, that is a correctly used comma!)
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By Vronak on Feb 9, 2009
“What I ask of you here, Internet, is use of your comma sense.”
Fixed!
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By TJ on Feb 9, 2009
While I totally admit to comma misuse, my errors are far less egregious than BRK’s.
At least I err on the side of underutilization!
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By hydra on Feb 9, 2009
Unfortunately my comma usage is atrocious. So they typically get left out so that there glaring presence is not noticed. And the omission can be tolerated.
I was suppose to use a comma there wasn’t I. *shrug* see what I mean.
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By Kusamoto on Feb 9, 2009
Commas are the most incorrectly used punctuation mark, according to numerous industry surveys. Very few high school English teachers can even correctly identify the proper time and place for a comma more than 75% of the time.
Having said that, I don’t read you, BRK, Ratshag, Darraxus, et al for punctuation. I read it because I need to laugh my ass off on break at my job. Content is king; everything else is secondary. Give BRK a break. You’re both hilarious and I check in every day (even when you’re gone for days at a time or leave us hanging on “so I set myself on fire today” cliffhangers).
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By TJ on Feb 9, 2009
MAYBE BRK should be giving ME a break!
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By Kestrel on Feb 9, 2009
As usual, too late to the party to anything but sweep up crumbs. However, it did my heart well to read Kusamoto’s explanation and analysis.
I was especially encouraged by his reference to the AP Style Manual’s insistence on a comma to separate all items in a series. I was taught that way almost 50 years ago, and I have stuck with it ever since.
While I’m sure I disagree with the AP on some things (the proper spellings of “gray” and “blond” (when used with a masculine object) perhaps among them, I’m gratified to see this one peeve of mine supported.
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By Kestrel on Feb 9, 2009
/plea TJ, please incorporate a comment editor. Otherwise, I shall forever be closing my parenthetical comments with a comma, rather than a right parenthesis.
*sigh*
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By KC on Feb 9, 2009
@Kusamoto and Kestrel: Unless it changed in the 2009 edition, the AP Stylebook actually says not to use an Oxford comma unless it’s necessary for clarity. “She went shopping for ham, milk, butter, bread and cheese” or “For breakfast, he ate toast, oatmeal, and ham and eggs.”
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By Ratshag on Feb 9, 2009
I sez there ain’t supposed ta be no flubbernuggin pause where he put the comma in the first place.
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By Fyr on Feb 9, 2009
Well, generally speaking I hates me them Gramma Nazis because the rules of language can’t be written down.
Language is defined by how folks use it, not by a book. (Dictionaries being out of date before they go to press.)
So technically, given that enough people share this comma misconception, it isn’t a misconception at all.
That said, his ass is so wrong, commas cause a pause they aren’t mandated by one. But consider using hyphens instead, quotes annoy me too.
The Patch-to-Patch-the-Patch Patch
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By Erika on Feb 9, 2009
Erm… see, the thing is. I can totally understand your thing about the commas, being a self-proclaimed grammar nazi myself. But then I read your next post and spotted… dun DUN dun… wait for it… a misplaced apostrophe! Do you have the same hated for the apostrophe thing? I think I am worse with the apostrophes than the commas. Here, see if you can find it:
it’s: contraction (it is) It’s going to be blue.
its: possessive The dog is in its blue house.
Frequently misused (esp. in the blogoshpere) and only commented on because of the topic of this post…
And all in good fun, I swear!
(this is why foreigners say English is so hard to learn)
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By TJ on Feb 9, 2009
@Erika I have a hatred for misplaced apostrophes as well. Of course I do.
However, everyone makes mistakes of the typo variety. I will take the ribbing regarding my own occasional slapdash punctuation.
The discussion here, though, is not about a typo. It is about BRK’s ridiculous comma placement. I used to edit his WoW Insider posts for him, and our comma arguments were the stuff of legends.
While I do, of course, make errors just like anyone else, at least I recognize them as errors and don’t declare them to be the rule.
LIKE BRK!!
@Fyr I definitely considered the hyphen option. That actually was my first thought. You’ve got to pick your battles, though, and I totally wasn’t going to win with hyphens. I had to leave for work in negative 3 minutes, I wasn’t dressed yet, and had not the time to give BRK a full grammar lesson.
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By Scribble on Feb 10, 2009
I tend to use a comma where I think someone should breathe, I also tend to talk quickly and need to inhale suddenly.
Having said that using a comma to FORCE a pause manfully into a sentence.
That, could, lead, to you, becoming, William, , , Shatner.
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By Doom on Feb 10, 2009
pretty simple, really. where he wanted to use a comma, he really should have used an ellipses. commas indicate a pause in reading in order to associate an array of ideas, points, thoughts, etc. ellipses represent, among other things, a simple pause in speech (which, in the context of BRKs title, is the intended action).
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By Flaime on Feb 10, 2009
Actually, for the most stylistically correct solution the answer is:
The Patch to Patch the Patch Patch
The final patch in the title is self-referential and there for no pause is needed.
However, The “Patch to Patch the Patch” Patch is acceptable, if not perfectly stylistically correct.
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By Merlot on Feb 11, 2009
At the risk of further muddying the waters, it’s a compound adjective. Therefore it should have been written as:
the Patch-to-Patch-the-Patch Patch
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By Aboo on Feb 11, 2009
Balder-dash and gobbledygook!
He wrote the sentence. He wanted the reader to pause there. *poof* comma. (or the elipse thing).
The only reason you have a valid point is because you are being forced to post it FOR him, thus attaching yourself to it with some degree of responsibility.
So, you could’ve just said “no problem!” and then posted it your own way anyway. Problem solved!…,
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By TJ on Feb 11, 2009
@Aboo I say to you, as I did to him – you can’t just insert commas where you want people to pause.
And the only reason I have a valid point is because my point is valid.
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By Bernie on Feb 11, 2009
http://www.unc.edu/depts/wcweb/handouts/commas.html
Commas are fun.
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By JD on Feb 13, 2009
While TJ’s technical rules are correct and BRK’s usage is “wrong” per standard rules of grammar, it is the long standing acceptance of the literary world that, once you’ve mastered the rules, you’re free to break them.
A great multitude of authors illustrate this – Steinbeck, Welsh, Palahniuk – to great effect within their respective works.
So … really, it hinges upon how well BRK has mastered the rules of the English language. :P
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By TJ on Feb 13, 2009
@JD As someone who has been proofreading BRK’s stuff for over a year now, he’s still got some mastering to do before he can take such freedoms.
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