Temerity Jane

147 Responses to “Leavers and non-drinkers.”

1. By Kristina on Jul 15, 2011

   I could not agree more. There is a person in my life who does not understand the concept that having kids requires sacrifices. She still wants to do whatever she wants, so she volunteers, has a second job (which she says is “for fun” b/c god knows it doesn’t make her any money), goes out with friends at least once a week, is involved in Ladie’s Auxillary stuff, plus works full time and now says she does it all b/c she “is a mom and deserves some time to herself.” Well, I don’t see how you can need a break from being a mom when you DON’T HAVE TIME TO BE A MOM BECAUSE OF ALL YOUR EXTRA ACTIVITIES.

   Ahem. Sorry for the tangent. Anyway! Yes, being a parent sometimes means you don’t get to do exactly what you want to do. Deal with it. Business owners have the right to ban kids, and I’m sure it greatly helps their business. And no one deserves to have someone else’s ill-behaved children forced upon them.

   [Reply]

   TJ Reply:
   July 15th, 2011 at 2:01 pm

   I think Phil and I really would like to stick as close to our former lives as possible and just work Penny INTO it, but we are definitely aware that a lot of stuff will be sacrificed – especially “breaks.” Heh.

   [Reply]

   Kristina Reply:
   July 18th, 2011 at 8:26 am

   Oh, I totally agree about working your kids into your life. I think that being a parent adds another dimension to who you are and (hopefully) just enriches everything else. I really hope I didn’t come off completely douchy and insinuate that I think people should put their lives and everything they enjoy on hold because they have kids. TOTALLY didn’t mean that. Just this one specific person spends A LOT of time away from her kids, which I have a little bit of a problem with. Time away is good for any parent, spending 80% of your time away is not okay with me.

   [Reply]

2. By Linnea Welch on Jul 15, 2011

   I am a fan of booze, but also hate feeling drunk. I have a “only a sip or two of certain stuff because I don’t like the taste of most alcohol and also hate feeling drunk” friend and a “Wild Cherry Pepsi Thankyouverymuch and I’m neither a judger or a recovering alcoholic” friend. They’re both PLENTY of fun to hang out with, even at places where people are drinking. Which is to say, you’re in good company in your “no thank you, diet soda please” category.

   [Reply]

   TJ Reply:
   July 15th, 2011 at 2:02 pm

   Thankfully, most people – the vast majority – are totally fine with, “diet soda, thanks.”

   [Reply]

3. By Meghan on Jul 15, 2011

   As someone who went to the midnight showing last night, I was wondering that exact thing, if anybody brought their babies along. I’m sure it happened.

   And I agree about the people who bring their misbehaving kids to a place like a nice restaurant and then don’t leave when they act up! Maybe leave them with a babysitter for a few hours the next time, you know?

   [Reply]

   TJ Reply:
   July 15th, 2011 at 2:11 pm

   I think it’s definitely a case of knowing your kid. You should leave them with a babysitter if you know they just can’t handle being out for dinner in public. Some can’t, you know? And definitely take them out if a normally good kid is just losing his fool mind at the table.

   [Reply]

   Lisa Reply:
   July 19th, 2011 at 4:44 am

   Nice restaurant, nothing. I don’t care if it’s McDonald’s, in the play area. It’s not a ZOO, your children aren’t FERAL, and if they are take them home. My younger sister was one of those “act up when shopping” kids, and we left cart after cart of stuff (although we always made sure a clerk knew right away, and apologized). LEA-VERS. And she grew out of it.
   My husband and I are the same way with our kids. But 99% of the time we can take them anywhere and not worry- British Museum? No worry! 8 hour flight? (admittedly hard to leave) fine! Fancy meal? Yes. Because you bring quiet activities and plan it so they’ve napped. DUH. Other people have paid money to be there and I would be pissed if MY night got ruined, so extend them the same courtesy.

   [Reply]

4. By deanna on Jul 15, 2011

   Yes! Completely agree!

   And um… perhaps you are available to come over for dinner and explain these concepts to my extended family?

   [Reply]

5. By thanksmngmt on Jul 15, 2011

   Thank you for being a leaver!! Or simply a not go-er!! Can you believe people actually brought their 2 under 7yr old children to a showing of The Hang over 2??
   We are leavers ourselves! And follow through people, which is nice b/c our child knows his role and isn’t that kid causing a seen at the Olive Garden! He is the type that leads to other people feeling the need to come up to us and tell us what a well behaved child he is. I think it is really sad that there are that many fit throwing kids in places they don’t belong that grown adults feel the need to compliment the parents of the quiet pleasant ones! Enjoy your movie @ the drive in!

   [Reply]

   Kioryn Reply:
   July 15th, 2011 at 1:56 pm

   OMG this happens every time I go to the movies. Now mind you, I remember my ex convincing me to go see one of the “crap” (maybe the first one) Star Wars movies when my daughter was like 2.

   She freaked out due to the noise (obviously), and he left the theater with her, so that I could watch the rest of it. Of course come to find out, he’d already seen it with friends. But still, I was a leaver/no go’er when my kids were small.

   Now that they’re grown, we all get annoyed when some toddler is screaming while we’re watching an ADULT movie. Just this weekend, we had toddlers in the theater while we watched Horrible Bosses. Seriously parents? You thought THAT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA?

   [Reply]

6. By Mama Bub on Jul 15, 2011

   I’m a leaver! And I’ve just accepted that there are some things we’re going to miss because we have children. Going to movies is one of them. We either get a sitter or see it on DVD. Yes, I would very much like to go see Harry Potter, like RIGHT NOW, but I can’t. Because I have children. This is also why I don’t eat in quiet, dimly lit restaurants. What I REALLY don’t understand, beyond ruining the experience for other people, is ruining the experience for yourself. Are you so able to tune out your own children that it’s even WORTH sitting through a movie/dinner/whatever with them?

   [Reply]

   Chaninn Reply:
   July 15th, 2011 at 10:54 am

   Yes, some people can tune out their children to the point the all of the adults are yelling to have a conversation because the children are being loud/annoying.
   I was hanging out with 2 other couples one evening and the children were so piercingly loud that I couldn’t hear any conversation from my friend next to me. I asked the parent (of 2 under5 children) to please quiet them down because I was getting a headache and she said “Oh, I guess they are getting kinda loud, I hadn’t noticed.”

   I don’t understand how anyone can ignore headache inducing noise levels for any length of time.

   [Reply]

   Mama Bub Reply:
   July 15th, 2011 at 11:11 am

   This is CRAZY to me, because I’m always worried that my kids are bothering someone.

   [Reply]

7. By Kirsty on Jul 15, 2011

   So with you on both of these points… We always chose child-friendly restaurants when the girls were small and I remember walking out of the IKEA cafeteria (the high life, I is living it) with a squawking 4-year-old about an inch from ordering food. So, yeah. Leavers rule!
   As for the alcohol thing – I don’t “not drink”, but I don’t really “drink” either. I mean, I live alone with my girls and never touch a drop (I’m a big Diet Coke fan too! And Diet Tonic!) from one week to the next, but if I actually go OUT somewhere, of an EVENING say (which happens roughly twice a year, seriously), I can be persuaded to partake of an alcoholic beverage or two, but never more because I, too, loathe being drunk or even tipsy.
   What makes it hard is that I live in France and I DON’T LIKE WINE. Yeah, try putting that one across without sounding like a dork. I like sweet drinks (liqueurs, for example, or Baileys) and HATE wine. This always goes down spectacularly well, as you can imagine. My one saving grace – I can just blame it on my Britishness. That’s the only solution I’ve found so far!
   Oh, and I see that Penny continues to be adorable…!

   [Reply]

8. By Larita on Jul 15, 2011

   Amen on the “missing out” thing. I cannot stand people who have children and expect life to go on as if they didn’t have children. You have a child and no matter how well-behaved that child is, there are simply things that you CANNOT do with a small child. Suck it up and get over yourself. Parenthood is all about self-sacrifice, that’s just the way it is – if you don’t like that concept, DON’T HAVE CHILDREN. Anyway, you already ranted, so I don’t need to :D But, yes, well said. In fact, so well said that I was starting to get all cranky and steamy just reading because I feel the exact same way.

   [Reply]

9. By Becky on Jul 15, 2011

   Ugh. I feel like if they are nagging you should get to make some sort of sarcastic remark to shut them up, but I can’t even think of something like that. I guess I would just keep saying “No, thank you, I don’t drink” to them. With a more and more forceful tone. Could you say “I prefer not to drink”? Would that alleviate the asking in some way, as it’s clear that you know you COULD, but you are CHOOSING not to? Annoying. People need to just stop being so pushy.

   [Reply]

10. By Sarah Lena on Jul 15, 2011

    1) We are also Leavers. Unapologetically. Because when my children are older and I CAN dine without them? I don’t want some other little shit ruining my meal. Especially when they’re NOT mine and I CAN’T discipline them. We have two phases: a) “do I have to take you to the bathroom?” – this is a holdover from my childhood and believe me, you DON’T WANT TO GO to the bathroom and then b) we pay our bill, overtip, and LEAVE. Not only does it leave everyone else to enjoy their meal, but it drives home to our kids that WE WILL NOT TAKE YOUR SHIT IN PUBLIC.

    2. My husband also does not drink and also goes through the same thing you do. His answers vary from “I’m a recovering alcoholic” (he’s not) to “Alcohol killed my mother” while sobbing (it did not).

    3. Penny is the got-durn cutest thing evar.

    [Reply]

    PinkieBling Reply:
    July 15th, 2011 at 11:02 am

    Your husband is HILARIOUS. I’m scared to ask but … what happens in the bathroom?

    [Reply]

11. By Vogt on Jul 15, 2011

    I lol’d at this: “But you used to drink! You drank that time, remember?” I do remember. I did used to drink. I also used to poop in my pants, but I gradually stopped doing that, too.”

    If I were ever to google “how to win an argument” that example should appear at the top of the list.

    [Reply]

12. By Ale on Jul 15, 2011

    Lol, “be a peach and get behind the neck rolls.” I love it. now if you could just throw in behind the knees for free. My daughter just had those dimple knees with the rolls behind. She reminded me of a mini Sumo wrestler. I would hold her over my legs and make her walk as if to crush the folks of Tokyo and yell, “oh no, it’s Godzilla!!! run for your lives!” Crushing noises included.

    [Reply]

    Jo Reply:
    July 17th, 2011 at 11:51 am

    +1

    [Reply]

13. By Amanda on Jul 15, 2011

    I am a leaver also. Misbehave? To the car you go. Easy as that, and the kids know it will happen. I will pack them up and head home quicker than they can dry up those tears.

    Along those lines of keeping kids at home – one more thing drives me crazy. People who say “You need a date night. NEED IT.” Well, genius, who is keeping the kids? My kids have grandparents but one set has no time, the other is our go-to all of the time. Well, mostly when one is sick or our during the work hours babysitter can’t be there. I refuse to dump my kids all of the time on one set of people. Won’t. do. it. Our marriage has survived for 14 years, I think we are ok.

    We don’t drink either. Get some weird looks, but whatever. People that really know me understand not to push an issue in my face. I don’t give into peer pressure at all. Guilt trips don’t work, either. Go ahead with your drunk self and I’ll call you when the kids get up at 6am in the morning. LOL!

    [Reply]

14. By Shawndra on Jul 15, 2011

    I need to copy this out and remove the cuteness that is Penny from it. The person I want to share this with would get lost in those neck wrinkles and never get the point. :(

    [Reply]

15. By Chris on Jul 15, 2011

    We are also leavers and just plain not-goers. Having children means sacrifice and I am ok with that. I can’t understand people who are proud of taking their infant to midnight movie premieres and bars to hear bands. That is nothing to be proud of you idiots! You don’t look cool, you look pathetic, IMO.

    Does it help if you say you just don’t like the taste of alcohol? I would totally respect your choice either way. If you choose not to drink and I do, I never thought the non-drinker might be judging me. I guess I don’t give a crap.

    [Reply]

16. By Tracey on Jul 15, 2011

    Ugh. What awful assumptions to choose from. Do you think tweaking the language would change people’s inferences? Maybe instead of ‘I don’t drink’ (which apparently gets heard as ‘I can’t drink’) you could use ‘I prefer Diet Coke’? It doesn’t sound judgey in my head, and it loses that don’t/can’t confusion. And you could say it in a British accent like a really bad commercial, which might create all sorts of new and much more interesting tangents.

    [Reply]

17. By Natalie on Jul 15, 2011

    And this, TJ, is why we love you :)

    I have some friends who are definite leavers. They are our favorite parental friends.

    I also don’t drink, but I don’t get bothered about it a lot. I think you should tell people you are donating your liver. Drunk people would totally believe that. Believe it or not, I get peer pressure about Chinese food. I don’t hate it, but I hate how it makes me feel when I eat it, so I just don’t. My husband and our close friends love it.

    [Reply]

18. By Emily on Jul 15, 2011

    Can I just say that Penny is SUPER adorable and I think I like you even MORE know that you said you are leavers. We are totally leavers. Our daughter is 3. Typically we go to family friendly places where is she loses it for a second it’s not a biggie. But I have hauled her tiny butt out of places and let my husband get the check and to go boxes. I would rather get looks because I’m hauling her out than because she is making a disaster at the table.

    [Reply]

19. By Delicia on Jul 15, 2011

    Re: Kids – absolutely 100% agree on everything you said. We are Leavers and Not-Takers.

    For the drinking thing, I rarely drink alcohol because I only like sweet froo-froo drinks like Pina Coladas or fuzzy navels, and even then I only like one or two maybe every 6 months. Since most places you go can’t/won’t make those, and I’m cheap and don’t want to pay for them anyway, I drink water (I don’t drink pop). If people ask me, I just honestly tell them I don’t like the taste of most alcohol, esp beer (EWW). Most people accept it with no problem.

    [Reply]

20. By Fyurae on Jul 15, 2011

    “But the difference between us and the people who don’t remove their poorly behaved children, or who show up to places and events that are clearly not for children is that we’re completely aware that “fairness” doesn’t come into play at all anymore.”

    Should be changed to…

    “But the difference between us and the people who don’t remove their poorly behaved children, or who show up to places and events that are clearly not for children is that we’re RESPONSIBLE PARENTS AND NOT SELF CENTERED PEOPLE WHO PUT THEMSELVES FIRST AND HAVE NO BUSINESS RAISING A HUMAN BEING.”

    Also, I am a non-drinker myself. But I have it pretty easy because I can give a whole bunch of conversation-ending reasons why. The two best being that four people in my close family were problem alcoholics, and I take anti-depressants. Those always end all cajoling.

    [Reply]

21. By Kate on Jul 15, 2011

    We are leavers, definitely. DEFINITELY.

    But on the takers/no-takers thing, we vary. My older child – just short of four – is extremely well behaved in restaurants. She sits and eats and converses like a person, orders off the real menu, and if she occasionally drops food on the floor, I pick it up. I don’t take her to fancy-schmancy date type places, or to bars, or midnight showings of Harry Potter. But I do take her to normal, not necessarily kid-centered restaurants (and other public venues) and it irritates me when people give me a look for doing so, without waiting to see how she behaves.

    Although given the behavior of other children I see, I don’t really blame restaurants for banning them. I don’t like it, but it doesn’t get me super worked up, either – I recognize that it’s their right.

    [Reply]

22. By Swistle on Jul 15, 2011

    When I didn’t drink, I had great success with saying “I just don’t like the FEELING.” And if people pressed, just because they were curious (because they DO like the feeling, so they’re wondering what it’s like to be me), I didn’t mind explaining that alcohol made my muscles sore and made me a little queasy, and I didn’t get any pleasant buzz feeling from it. Then everyone was just like Oh, BUMMMER! and everything moves on.

    I think what makes people keep PRESSING is when they don’t understand, and when they want to find out what the situation is (i.e., if you ARE a recovering alcoholic they want to be sensitive to that; if you ARE judging them they want to be aware of it; if you’re the designated driver they want to REALLY get started on the shots; etc.). They’ve found the same with babies in psych studies: the babies will look at something longer if it doesn’t make sense.

    And with some stuff, of course it’s no one’s RIGHT to know: but I don’t MIND them knowing, and I empathize with the curiosity, and it makes things EASIER for everyone, so I go ahead and tell them the reason. If it were a more personal reason (e.g., “When I drink I end up having sex with strangers”), I would make up a reason like my actual reason about muscle soreness.

    [Reply]

    Lara Reply:
    July 15th, 2011 at 11:15 am

    Haaa, oh Swistle. I’m using “When I drink I end up having sex with strangers” the next time I don’t feel like drinking. HA.

    [Reply]

23. By Diane on Jul 15, 2011

    I am so mad this baby decided he was going to go and come early, because we totally would have been able to leave the girls with my mom for the night to go be with the crazies for Harry Potter. Alas, it was not to be. SO WE AREN’T GOING. Oh well. (It’s so awesome that you guys have a drive in. I would be ALL OVER a drive in.)

    It’s entitlement, is what it is. Always with the entitlement.

    [Reply]

24. By Simone on Jul 15, 2011

    The neck-rolls caption made me laugh out loud at my desk…. adorable kid and funny-as-hell mom.

    [Reply]

25. By Julie on Jul 15, 2011

    Not to sound incredibly old here, but I think with age you will find less people judging you when you say you don’t drink. I found after going through my cancer treatment, I completely lost any taste for alcoholic beverages. I don’t know, maybe I am just crazy, or it is just the people I do or do not hang around, but nobody ever really notices when everyone orders a drink except me. Many weekends, several nurses go out to breakfast specifically to places that serve alcohol in the morning, and everyone (3-6 people) else but me will order a drink, and I happily order Diet Coke.

    With the children in public, I found it was just one of my THINGS. I had a severe aversion to children who acted ridiculously in public, and from a young age (2 or so, as soon as they had a grasp on right and wrong) my kids knew that misbehaving in public was a HUGE NO. I think every parent has their own THINGS that they stress, for me, them acting appropriately in public was one of mine. I had no problem taking them outside or to the bathroom, or even leaving, but I would Never have stayed and just let them act like brats unchecked.

    [Reply]

26. By Lara on Jul 15, 2011

    I don’t have kids, so everyone assumes I fall into the “kid-free restaurants yahoo” camp and they’re mostly right.

    For nice places. If I go to Burger King or even Red Robin or something like that, I’m not there for a fine dining, low stress experience. Super OK with kids being there. But we don’t go out for dinner a lot. We have a budget (like everyone) and eating out isn’t a big thing for us. So when I do, I want to enjoy it and don’t feel bad saying a screaming kid or a kid running around the restaurant stressing out the wait staff is not enjoyable. Ditto vacations. I look for hotels/condos that are adult only because I think kids on vacation are cute and awesome and I was one once, but MY idea of a vacation is reading quietly by the pool time and not CANNONBALLLLLLLLL! etc. I do enjoy watching them play in the sand and stuff on the beach, but I will choose when I want that and when I want peace and quiet. That doesn’t mean I hate kids. It means I like my expensive vacation to be what I consider to be A Vacation.

    I have a hard time with people who say “Well, why shouldn’t *I* be able to enjoy XYZ, just because I have a kid?” This is one of those THINGS you were supposed to consider when deciding whether to have kids or not. There should be an application questionnaire: “Are you willing to give up on some activities you currently enjoy, yes or no?” If the answer is No, well then. Application DENIED.

    I wish all parents were like you and Phil. For real. You guys should give lessons.

    Also, drinking. I like a drink or two, but most of the time it’s just that – one or two. I don’t want to get drunk and then watch tv or try to read. I like to relax with a drink and then move on to something else. Even my boyfriend will sometimes say to me “Oh, it’s FRIDAY! Have another one!” and I’m like, no, really. I wanted A Drink. I did not want to get Drunk. What difference does it make what day it is?

    [Reply]

27. By Christen on Jul 15, 2011

    My parents were total Leavers/Not Goers (at least not with me in tow) and you know what it did? It made going out FUN for all of us because it was a treat for me so I sure as hell wasn’t going to be a dick and they weren’t anxious all the time.

    I’d probably take the “no babies at a midnight movie” a step further to, uh, maybe no babies at movies period? I mean, babies cry at random intervals, right? So they’re just as likely to be awake and fussy at a matinee as at a midnight show…maybe? Sorry, my asshole-childfree (for now) ways are showing.

    Next time someone pushes you to have “just one drink COME ON” (who are these afterschool special rejects anyway?) calmly reply that you’re currently on antibiotics to treat a venereal disease so you have to pass for now. Double points if you say this with Phil next to you, smiling away. Super extra points if you say it while nursing Penny.

    [Reply]

    hydrogeek Reply:
    July 15th, 2011 at 12:14 pm

    This reply is a thing of beauty. I do drink from time to time, but not very often, and I think I am TOTALLY stealing the venereal disease line for those occasions when I don’t want to drink and some asshat is being pushy.

    [Reply]

    Jessica Reply:
    July 15th, 2011 at 4:01 pm

    I have two kids and I totally agree with no babies at movies EVER. We tried bringing our daughter to Avatar when she was little (couldn’t yet walk, so couldn’t run away). The noise scared her and she made that known. Loudly. We left and will never again try to take little kids to a movie. I even rejected the idea of going to the Winnie the Pooh movie this weekend because I don’t care if everyone else’s kids are there, too, if mine is acting up it stresses me out.

    [Reply]

28. By Brooke on Jul 15, 2011

    Six stars out of 5 on the “Leavers” commentary. I wholeheartedly agree. My husband and I absolutely would be leavers, too. My parents were leavers/not goers/turn the car arounders, and I assure you it only took one time being pulled away from the crayons at my table at Po Folks to correct that behavior. Sure, I’m sure my parents were embarrassed, but they certainly were not going to allow us to not have manners at a table, whether it be at our home or a restaurant.

    Also, with the people who think their kids should be everywhere. They should not. Personally, I don’t even feel they should be at weddings – fancy dinners with adults up late and dancing? You wouldn’t take them to a night club. Or maybe some people would.

    Have you tried just saying “I don’t care for alcohol?” I can agree that it’s an odd concept, but I would hope I’d be more understanding of a simple, “no thank you.” I have a friend who doesn’t drink for the same reason as you, and it’s not an issue. Every now and then, she wants to taste my wine just to see if maybe that glass doesn’t taste as foul to her as others have, but I’ve never seen her order a drink of her own.

    [Reply]

29. By Carrie on Jul 15, 2011

    We’re Not-Takers. We are very careful when we go out to eat with the kids that it’s somewhere with a kids’ menu, because it is therefore assumed that children may be present in the restaurant. Of course, our kids VERY rarely act up when we’re out, but if they do, my husband will march them straight outside without a word while I get the check or finish paying for the groceries or whatever.

    I totally do not get people who don’t understand that there are places that are appropriate for children and places that are NOT appropriate for children. Quite a few years ago I used to hang out at the bar a block over with some people from work from time to time. They had pool and I’d have a drink or two and then head home. I think it was the last time I went there, one of the guys’ daughter shows up. WITH HER BABY. IN THE BAR. And this wasn’t a classy bar, either, this was bordering on a dive. And she thought it would be fine to bring her baby there.

    I am still boggled by that one.

    [Reply]

30. By Melissa on Jul 15, 2011

    “The other assumption would be that someone is so self-absorbed and so self-important that they truly do not give a shit about the experience of others and are perfectly fine ruining it as long as they get to go where and do what they want, when they want.”

    I think this is more often the case than not. Sadly. I LOVE that you’re a fellow leaver and no-go-er. I hear about all these people that take their children on tropical vacations and I cannot imagine how NOT FUN that is unless of course they brought all the nannies also.

    [Reply]

31. By Elaine Oriol on Jul 15, 2011

    I Totally agree with you. Having raised four, we were not likely to take the kids into a fancy restaurant – more like Shakey’s Pizza or Mcdonalds. As they grew older, and I was a single parent, when we went to a restaurant, it was understood that if they got rowdy, they didn’t get to go with me the next time we went out to eat – worked like a charm.

    Regarding the drinking, I know if I have more than one drink a massive migraine is on the way. I really don’t care if anyone around me understands that – my family never pushes me – they know better. lol Love the pictures of my precious great-grandbaby – keep them coming.

    [Reply]

32. By Tempest on Jul 15, 2011

    Aughhhh, people drive me crazy. I understand your strife with not drinkig alcohol — I’m vegetarian and people react like I will picket outside their houses if they eat meat in front of me. Eat it! Enjoy it! Just don’t make me taste it. I have to go through a whole explanation that I’m vegetarian because I don’t like the taste, not because I’m all “save the animals” and believe that what they’re doing is evil.

    Besides, I have friends who just don’t like the taste of alcohol. I do, but I accept that they don’t like it. I won’t make you drink if you don’t make me eat meat. It’s a deal then.

    Also, thank you for subscribing to the philosophy of leaving. I can’t tell you how many times a visit to a restaurant or shopping excursion or movie has been ruined by someone else’s kid. I don’t blame the kid as much as I blame the parent — if the kid doesn’t want to be there, take it somewhere else! Just don’t subject me to the wailing/screaming/kicking.

    My mom apparently was a leaver, too. Though she stopped having to leave restaurants when she discovered that my baby-self just wanted to be the centerpiece of the table. O___o I was a weird kid.

    [Reply]

33. By Kayley M. on Jul 15, 2011

    Oh, thank you for this. We are leavers, too. Ava’s not quite 3 months yet, so it hasn’t been a real problem yet, but I have done lots of nannying and any misbehaving got the child buckled in his car seat for a time out, if it happened again we left.

    And, I am also a non-drinker. It helps that my husband is also a non-drinker, we can say “We don’t drink”, but then the assumption is that we are really religious and THAT’S why we don’t drink. The truth is, we just don’t like it, and it’s way too expensive even if we did. But why do we have to have a reason?

    [Reply]

34. By Write From Karen on Jul 15, 2011

    Again, I agree 100% (I’d say 1000% but that would make me one of those blogger sucker ups and I can’t STAND those people, so, 100% it is).

    I’m pretty sure I saw the tweet you’re referring to and I too was annoyed when I read it.

    We were (and still would be if my teenagers started acting like assholes) leavers. It’s about common courtesy which, sadly, seems to be a foreign concept in today’s world. We didn’t leave our house for YEARS (okay, it just felt like it, but seriously, it was months) simply because I didn’t want to have to deal with a fussy baby and ruin experiences for other people mainly because I know how I feel when I’m out trying to enjoy myself and get my money’s worth on X event and I have a screaming baby in my ear. (Seriously, one time was so bad my head vibrated for hours afterward).

    In addition to the respect/courtesy issue, it also teaches your children a lesson (when they’re old enough to understand, of course) that that kind of behavior is unacceptable and they soon learn, if they want to stay and have fun? Then straighten up, pronto.

    Sure. I was disappointed when we had to leave. But life is full of disappointments and when you have kids – NEWS FLASH – it’s not just about you anymore.

    Period.

    [Reply]

35. By Chelle on Jul 15, 2011

    I like my wine but I can’t imagine, for the life of me, trying to bully, pressure, embarrass, etc., someone in to drinking with me. That’s rude. Also, there would be less wine for me.

    [Reply]

    Linnea Reply:
    July 15th, 2011 at 1:18 pm

    Exactly! Amen! Pass the malbec!

    [Reply]

36. By Flame on Jul 15, 2011

    Re: Leavers: I totally love you!!!

    Re: Non-drinkers: I went through a period of time where I did not drink. All my friends were getting smashed all the time and I just felt like someone had to be the responsible one so that they didn’t get hurt and I chose myself, but I didn’t broadcast that to anyone. I really didn’t run into much objection. Now I do enjoy drinking once in awhile, but hubby & I switch off responsibility of DD. I’ve found that if I am having a night I just don’t want to drink, using that as an excuse doesn’t get much response, but telling someone you are DD does. Most people don’t seem to challenge that.

    [Reply]

37. By Willow on Jul 15, 2011

    “Something I heard ALL THE TIME as a waitress: A kid is just throwing this huge fit at the table, or throwing food, or knocking shit over, and the parent says to me, “Just ignore him. He’s only doing it for attention.”

    THEN TAKE HIM HOME AND GIVE HIM SOME, DAMN.”

    This….A LOT! It’s sad to look around and see that a large percentage of society is not into active parenting, but also has a huge sense of entitlement.

    [Reply]

38. By Courtney on Jul 15, 2011

    My younger sister (not much younger, though…she’s about to be 24) has autism and has always been super sensitive to babies or young children crying. It causes her an incredible amount of distress, so as a result, *I’ve* become super sensitive to children crying. It’s mostly a reflex. When I hear a baby cry, I instinctively look around for the source, and then for my sister (whether she’s with me or not, haha) to soothe her. For years we’ve had to be the “leavers” because people insist on bringing infants to movies or restaurants, and why would you do that anyway? You’re basically paying an exorbitant amount of money for a child who’s probably not even enjoying the experience, and who certainly isn’t going to remember it anyway. I mean, look at him! He’s bawling his eyes out. It’s pretty clear that he HATES CRAB RANGOON and JUST WANTS TO LEAVE. Maybe get take-out next time, I don’t know.

    I’m obviously not saying that all babies should never leave the house, or just stop crying completely because my adult sister can’t handle it, no. It’s annoying for everyone. Babies are at their least cute when they’re snotting up their jammies and bawling out a lung. Whenever I see a responsible parent carrying their crying child OUT of a restaurant or movie, I want to applaud them. You’re taking one for the team, and I love you.

    Also, alcohol just doesn’t click with me, either. I had a bad party experience when I was younger and now sometimes even the smell is enough to make me want to vomit. I’d rather not subject myself to that, so I’m satisfied being the designated driver. I have a good time just watching my friends make drunken fools out of themselves. It’s a cheap and easy way to get your kicks and not be the subject of an embarrassing drunkenly-tucked-my-skirt-into-my-underwear picture on Facebook the next day.

    [Reply]

39. By Kayeri on Jul 15, 2011

    Well, I’m not much of a drinker, never have been, and we have left restaurants precisely twice when our daughter got bratty. The second time my husband had to carry her out while she was having a fit… ::sigh:: All I could do was follow offering quiet apologies as I went. But we got her out.

    Twice only… It never happened again after that, because she knew she wouldn’t get the food she wanted behaving like that… we did it once, it got her attention, the second time I guess drove it home. Yes, she will still get restless having to wait for us to finish, but never again was there a fit…

    Twice we have gone out with friends for just dessert and I talk to her about it before we go to make sure she will last and even then I simply make sure that I can leave with her and one of the friends will bring my husband home if she gets over-tired. That has worked extremely well for us. :)

    [Reply]

40. By Issa on Jul 15, 2011

    I’m a leaver and I have three kids. Nothing better than one having a fit and the others being pissed at that kid too, because they don’t want to leave either. Heh.

    It rarely happens…because mine know I’m a leaver. Stores. Restaurants. Parties. Chuck e’ Cheese. Disney. For serious. I’ve left them all.

    At this point, I’m generally told how well behaved my kids are in public. However, when I tell people, I’m a leaver they tend to think I’m mean. Whatever.

    [Reply]

41. By Adie on Jul 15, 2011

    I want to make out with this post.

    [Reply]

42. By Jessica on Jul 15, 2011

    My family (parents and grandparents) don’t drink. Ever. I grew up thinking this was totally normal and the people who DO drink seem like the ones deviating from the norm (though I’m aware they’re not). I do have the occasional drink (I love the taste, but not the hangover), but haven’t had anyone really notice whether I’m drinking or not.

    [Reply]

43. By Jessica on Jul 15, 2011

    Also, I’m totally jealous of your drive-in. If I could go to the movies without having to pump and leave a bottle, that would be AWESOME.

    [Reply]

44. By Veronica on Jul 15, 2011

    I always thought we would be Leavers too, but it turns out, having to drive an hour to get to the supermarket and an hour back home again means that screaming kid = just get it done quickly.

    But then, while I have been the arsehole carrying a screaming toddler around the supermarket (meltdown, autism) I have also been the one geting JUDGED as I abandon my husband to finish the shopping without me, while I escape with the screaming toddler outside. But more often, we just avoid doing the things that might make it awkward if the kids lose it. Meals out? Yay, but c’mon, we’ll get a baby sitter and eat in peace. Much nicer.

    I think the supermarket a few times was the only time I haven’t left, because the need to eat (and travelling time) trumps a screaming kid. Sometimes.

    And I don’t drink either, because I HATE feeling drunk. Just, no.

    [Reply]

45. By Kailen on Jul 15, 2011

    I don’t drink either. I only recently turned 21 and I went to dinner with a friend, had one drink, got a bit tipsy, and realized, hey… Don’t really like that. So, I don’t.
    Thankfully I don’t go out much so I don’t really get pressured into drinking much.

    (And can I just say that the people trying to get you to have even ‘JUST ONE’ drink while you were pregnant and DIDN’T WANT TO, is pretty freaking appalling.)

    [Reply]

46. By Deedee on Jul 15, 2011

    And there are also those who say “we must take our children out to a nice restaurant at the age of two so they can learn how to behave in a restaurant.”
    No. You teach your children manners at home and then WHEN THEY ARE OLD ENOUGH they will behave nicely in a restaurant. We never ate out with our kids until they were around 7-8 years old. And surprisingly enough, even though they had never been in a nice restaurant, they knew how to behave in a very civilized fashion.

    [Reply]

47. By Carrie on Jul 15, 2011

    Wow. The more I read you, the more I love you. We are also leavers. I have an almost 6 year old and I can’t tell you the number of meals that I’ve eaten cold out of a cardboard box. Eventually he learned and now we have nice meals out. We’ve never actually had to leave with his little sister, which is nice. She’s a much better behaved child.

    I don’t drink either. I don’t enjoy the taste of it, alcoholism runs in the family, it’s expensive. I always tell people I’d rather save my calories for chocolate, which usually leads to a “huh???” look, but then they leave me alone.

    [Reply]

    Ann Reply:
    July 18th, 2011 at 8:59 am

    “I’d rather save my calories for chocolate”

    –Pure genius!

    [Reply]

48. By Staciepo on Jul 15, 2011

    First- from a fellow Potter and drive-in fan, DFTBA! It makes this weekend a stellar kind of one. I am aware as I approach marriage and after that, parenthood, I won’t always be at the midnight show (hopefully, there won’t be another thing I love this much), but my fiance thinks I’m a nerd, so he can be home with the kids(s). My sister is my awesome parenting role model- she is a leaver, follow through on word-er, etc. Her kids have the average amount of sass that they pick up from others, but they can sit in restaurants, through drive-in movies, eat veggies if they want dessert, know that whining and begging have no effect on decision… to me that is parenting gold!

    As always, enjoy your regular doses of humor and common sense observation… makes me confident that parenthood won’t be the end of the world, just a tweaking of it!

    [Reply]

    Staciepo Reply:
    July 15th, 2011 at 7:38 pm

    Sorry for the double post- was trying to edit (to late)… feel free to delete me :)

    [Reply]

49. By Staciepo on Jul 15, 2011

    First- from a fellow Potter and drive-in fan, DFTBA! It makes this weekend a stellar kind of one. I am aware as I approach marriage and after that, parenthood, I won’t always be at the midnight show (hopefully, there won’t be another thing I love this much), but my fiance thinks I’m a nerd, so he can be home with the kid(s). My sister is my awesome parenting role model- she is a leaver, follow through on word-er, etc. Her kids have the average amount of sass that they pick up from others, but they can sit in restaurants, through drive-in movies, eat veggies if they want dessert, know that whining and begging have no effect on decision… to me that is parenting gold!

    As always, enjoy your regular doses of humor and common sense observation… makes me confident that parenthood won’t be the end of the world, just a tweaking of it!

    [Reply]

50. By Ashley on Jul 15, 2011

    The alcohol thing? I usually just shrug and say, “I’m not much of a drinker.”

    We’re Leavers for sure. We take the kids out to eat fairly often and they’re almost always well-behaved, but we don’t go to really “nice” places with them and I absolutely would not hesitate to take them outside if I thought they were bothering someone else. I do not see what the big deal is about a restaurant that bans kids. It’s not that complicated: GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

    And, um, we actually took my daughter to a Harry Potter movie when she was very wee. We picked an afternoon showtime (there were about five people in the theater) and I nursed her right to sleep as soon as the lights went out. She slept through the whole movie and never made a sound. I wouldn’t have taken her if I thought she would cause a ruckus and I would have lit out of there like my ass was on fire if she had made so much as a peep.

    [Reply]

    Nancy Reply:
    July 15th, 2011 at 10:02 pm

    This is what I am hoping to do for my baby (who will be about a month) and Breaking Dawn. But only if he is a happy, laid back baby who nurses well and doesn’t startle easily and during a very slow time during the day and during the week after the movie has been out for a couple of weeks. And I am willing to leave if he gets fussy. Is that horrid?

    [Reply]

    Ashley Reply:
    July 18th, 2011 at 9:02 am

    No way. I think people get pre-judgy when they see parents bring babies into movies, but I think it can totally work as long as you have a contingency plan. Also, if you asked nicely, I bet most movie theaters would refund your money if you had to leave within the first 15 or 20 minutes.

    [Reply]

51. By Phancy on Jul 15, 2011

    Dear Abby just recently answered the question of how to tell people you aren’t drinking an alcoholic drink without it being a big fuuferahh. Sadly, her answers were not much better than what you came up with.
    And why is it so different from people who won’t drink drinks with sugar in them? No one flips when I ask for iced tea with no sugar. (Although I’ve never been the person who was not drinking alcohol, unless I was pregnant. So perhaps I cannot fully empathize.)
    We are leavers too, and are SO overly paranoid about it. In our old town, there was apparently one restaurant that was not welcoming to children, but had NO indication of that–it just seemed like a normal place. So there were apparently all these families that went there and were then told, after being seated WITH children, that they had no kids menu. I always figured they would have told the family at the door or something. Long story longer, we have even called up restaurants to ask if kids are welcome. We get some confused responses, but we feel better.

    [Reply]

52. By Mugician13 on Jul 15, 2011

    Two things:

    “It’s not FAIR that YOU get to go and I DON’T, just because I have a kid, so I’m bringing him. Then it’s FAIR.” Nope… it switches the burden of “unfair” from you to EVERYONE ELSE AROUND YOU.

    And second, I think “Sorry, I’m donating my liver tomorrow,” would be the perfect way to end that conversation. Since no intelligent person would take you seriously, and view it as an attempt at humor, it’s not necessarily a lie. And if someone does take you seriously, well, that just opens up the whole evening [or at least the next 10 minutes] to severely mess with their head, which is always great fun.

    [Reply]

53. By Rayne of terror on Jul 15, 2011

    If I’m going to something I know is a drinking event, like say a float trip on a river, and I plan on drinking my diet coke only I will brIng along a can cozy to disguise my beverage. No one questions what I’m drinking.

    [Reply]

54. By Home Sweet Sarah on Jul 15, 2011

    Okay, okay, I have a few things to say here, but I’ve had a few drinks (hey!), but what I would like to know RIGHT NOW is: What’s with the Ken doll in the window sill?

    [Reply]

55. By Nic on Jul 15, 2011

    I’m with Sarah, what’s up with Ken on the windowsill??!

    Also, I don’t really drink either (maybe one or two every couple of months at this point) and it’s really interesting to see how many questions I get about it. It’s not because I’m anti-alcohol, super religious or in recovery, I just don’t like the way it makes me feel, especially the day after (one can really mess up my sleep). I’m not opposed to other people drinking, I just don’t like it for me. Not to mention, I’ve been on and off of WW a good bit over the years and, to be very honest, I would much rather eat my calories (in chocolate or cheese form) than drink them. I’ve found that the best response is, “water is great for me tonight, thanks.” Adding the ‘tonight’ in seems to answer questions and it’s not an untruth, water is great for me tonight.

    For me it’s much harder to explain that I don’t drink anything with caffeine. For folks who rely on coffee to exist in the morning, me being chipper in the airport at 6 am is just plain confusing.

    [Reply]

56. By Nancy on Jul 15, 2011

    Amen for leavers. We are leavers. We used to ALWAYS go out in public together with our son. He starts pitching a fit in the grocery store? Dad takes him to wait in the car while Mommy finishes. Restaurant? Again, Dad takes him out while Mom cancels/pays/gets to-go boxes/whatever. Everyone else deserves to have a fun time without our poorly acting child. We went to see the Dawn of the Dead remake in theaters very pre-baby days. There were toddlers and young children screaming in fear and the parents just told them to hush and so they could watch he movie. We actually have a theater here who stops playing kids movies at a certain time and any showing after 9 or 10 is for people a certain age and up only. I think this is amazingly awesome. Leavers end up with better behaved children, I think.

    [Reply]

57. By Kelly on Jul 15, 2011

    You could say “I’m not having alcohol tonight, thanks!” or “Not right now,” or something of the sort. Thank you for being a leaver! I always feel so bad for those kids who are bawling away and the parent is either being super mean or ignoring them. I hope you enjoy the movie! I did =) I cried so much!

    [Reply]

58. By Leah on Jul 16, 2011

    I can relate so closely with this topic that I came out of lurking to comment on it.

    Just tonight, I was out at a bar with some friends. I don’t drink, but I enjoy the company and these people already know I don’t drink and don’t pester me about it, so whatever. This bar has virgin drinks (of course), and me and the designated driver had already DISCUSSED the virgin drinks. So when the time came to order, I just said, “I’ll have what he’s having.” I figured he’d get something VIRGIN, right?

    The Designated Driver then ordered an actual, booze drink. A STRONG one. Knowing he had to drive later, knowing I don’t touch the stuff, and again, HE HAD TO DRIVE LATER. VERY SHORTLY LATER.

    Derp.

    [Reply]

59. By LemonFresh on Jul 16, 2011

    YES on the “leaver” issue. Not an identical situation, but I waitress at a pretty fancy restaurant and one of my co-workers has two young kids (3 and 5, I think). Any time she says her husband is bringing them in for a bit is time for me to get my Patience Gear on. Yes, I understand you work here but your kids are NOT IN ANY WAY WELL-BEHAVED and this is NOT an appropriate restaurant for kids. She ignored her 5-year-old going behind the bar to “make a juice” for his sister, which involved him sticking his hand in the maraschino cherries and spilling ginger ale. He wasn’t supposed to be there but there were no consequences when he was, besides a few half-hearted scoldings. Just… what even… I HAVE NO WORDS ARGH.

    On a somewhat related note, apparently years ago the owner of the place (Greek, volatile temper) took the high chairs out into the parking lot and SMASHED them in front of a family who was leaving after their young kids had terrorized the restaurant for the whole meal. Kinda makes me laugh, a little.

    I have no awesome advice about the drinking thing. I don’t drink either, but I am lucky in that I rarely run in to anybody who is dumb about it. Maybe my kooky beverage choice of hot water puts them off? They must just think I’m weird.

    If pressed, I will sometimes say that my dad was an alcoholic, which is true, but I really don’t like talking about it and it makes me sound very… reactionary. I dunno, maybe you could stress that you prefer your soda?

    [Reply]

60. By Allison on Jul 16, 2011

    I also don’t drink and run into the same problems but more than the saying I can have just ONE DRINK, assuming ill be the one to drive is what really pisses me off. Don’t get me wrong id love to make sure all of my drunk and disorderly friends get home OK, but back when I DID drink we took turns driving remember, let’s do that and have someone else at least PRETEND they are being responsible, you aren’t giving me gas money, just a headache… get a cab. Ok im done.

    [Reply]

61. By squandra on Jul 16, 2011

    Maybe “I don’t like to drink” instead of “I don’t drink”? It’s pretty clear and concise. It’s true. But, we’re talking about the “Come ON! Have ONE!” people … I guess even that may be to subtle for them.

    [Reply]

62. By Ron on Jul 16, 2011

    Considering how many responses you’ve had, and I haven’t bothered to try reading more than a couple. You may not ever actually see this, but if you do, I for the most part agree with your assessment of the children in public places argument, and your beliefs on why some people ignore some of these social graces. However, let me play devil’s advocate here and discuss a couple reasons you’ve left out. (Also, your daughter is completely adorable, if you ever get tired of her feel free to email us :) But really, here’s the thing, and over the next few months/years you MIGHT understand better, you might not, some children are just amazingly well behaved in public. Where was I? Oh yes, the thing, the thing is, not all children are the same. No child is born knowing how to behave, good behavior is taught. Not all children pick up on these lessons as easily as others, not all parents are as good at teaching them.

    Scene one: Your child is say, 4, you and Phil have been busy all week long, it’s Friday or Saturday and the absolute last thing either of you feels like doing is cooking, you’ve barely had time for a snack all day, you’re sick to death of fast food, so you pack up the kid and head to your favorite (kid friendly) restaurant. The problem is, tonight your kid doesn’t want to eat out. They are bored and restless in the restaurant. She wants to be anywhere but here. She’s acting out, and the problem is, if you leave early, you’re rewarding her acting out by giving her exactly what she wants, which is to leave. She’s a bit young now but you’ll discover soon enough that any time you reward bad behavior by giving in, the next time it will be 10x worse.

    In this case, it would be best for one of you to take the child to the car and sit until she settles down, but odds are you may end up eating in shifts, which sucks, especially when you don’t get a lot of time together as it is. And what happens if Phil isn’t there, if you’re a single mother/father, or what if Phil had some sort of work or family obligation or for whatever reason you were alone and dealing with this.

    You would be amazed at how quickly a 4yo acting out and pitching fits in a restaurant turns into a 12/14/16yo acting out and pitching fits. You HAVE to teach them to behave in public, or they’ll never learn. And sometimes that means sitting there and being embarrassed and possibly making the situation less comfortable for someone else. This is one of those cases where the whole “it takes a village to raise a child” thing applies.

    Children have to learn to behave in public, and taking them out of public when they are misbehaving can make this lesson difficult, or impossible to learn.

    [Reply]

    TJ Reply:
    July 16th, 2011 at 9:47 am

    I totally get what you’re saying, but I absolutely 100% disagree. No matter how old she is or WHY she is misbehaving, pitching a fit in public and ruining the experience of others in “the village” earns a trip home. Period. I won’t tell other diners, “Sorry you have to listen to this tantrum and can’t enjoy your meal, but I can’t take her home because that would be giving her what she wants, and you understand – our parenting trumps your pleasant evening.” Nope. No way. If she wants to go home and we give in, sure, we’re giving her what she wants, but I bet she wouldn’t want to spend the rest of the night sitting her in room when we got there, but that’s what would happen.

    Really, I do understand that you’re trying to come up with some situation where I’d stay in a restaurant when my kid was being awful, but I’m telling you – there isn’t one. Not a chance. Our need to “teach her a lesson” doesn’t trump the comfort of everyone else in the world, and she can easily be taught the same lesson at home. “The village” didn’t ask to be a part of raising my child, you know? And I won’t put it on them.

    [Reply]

    John Reply:
    July 16th, 2011 at 11:18 am

    Precisely. The needs of One NEVER outweighs the needs of Many.

    Our kids are 6 & 11. When we go out, IF we take them with us, we’ll go to a child-friendly restaurant, and I assure you that I have embarrassed my wife by disciplining our kids in the restaurant if they dared to carry on.

    I cannot stand kids who scream in restaurants while their parents ignore them because “she’s just doing that go get attention”. No. Absolutely not. You’re there as a family, enjoying a meal together, and your child wants attention but you’re not giving it to her because that’s what she wants??? What kind of Failogic is that???

    Your child is disturbing the other patrons. You can either shut her up any way you can, and if you have to leave the restaurant to do so then do it, or, be an ignorant jerk.

    If the wife and I want to go out to a nice, not-child friendly restaurant, we’ll make plans with the in-laws to take the kids for the evening. And if the in-laws cannot take the kids then WE won’t go to that restaurant. It’s that simple. Of course we’re also not ignorant jerks who think it’s acceptable to take our children to inappropriate locations then ignore them while they disturb other people.

    [Reply]

    Jess Reply:
    July 17th, 2011 at 9:39 am

    The moment anyone says ‘let me play Devils Advocate’ I think ‘oh great here comes another person who thinks it’s fun to wind other people up’.

    TJ is right…I have two of the little buggers and you know what? We leave. We either silence the situation entirely or we get up and walk out.

    And -I am- a single parent. You don’t get good manners and principles by coming up with alternate situations. You get them by applying the good manners consistently across the board.

    I promise you..the 4 year old who doesn’t want to be at dinner that one night -will- want to be out somewhere at some point and if they continue with the bad manners they will learn from consistency.

    [Reply]

    Ron Reply:
    July 17th, 2011 at 9:50 am

    Not sure about the ‘fun to wind other people up’ but what’s the point in having a conversation if you don’t give a damn about the subject? If you want to talk about the weather, say hi to someone on a train/bus/subway, or in an elevator.

    [Reply]

    Jess Reply:
    July 17th, 2011 at 10:16 am

    So why else would you do Devils Advocate..because inherently that means you don’t agree with the position you’re taking. You’re playing the ‘Devil’ after all.

    So in essence, what you’re doing is saying ‘oh I see you have a position you feel strongly about. I am going to take an opposite position, that I don’t actually support, counter your position and see your reaction to it’

    You might -feel- like Socrates, it is after all his nature to question the belief system of others and find out the root and cause of their thoughts..but in reality it is ‘fun to wind other people up’. Especially when it goes from ‘I’m playing Devil’s advocate’ to ‘You’ve gone too far’ because someone -disagrees- with you and stands with their belief system.

    Socrates did not tell people they did not understand his ‘why’ or even his ‘Devil’s Advocate’ position..he continued to ask why.

    Personally, I don’t think you were playing Devil’s Advocate. I think you were trying to argue your position and were using a method to seem innocuous, which is sadly the most common default in someone’s reasoning behind saying that phrase and hence my reaction to it.

    It’s absolutely fine to have a conversation about something you care about. It’s absolutely -not- fine to present it as an exercise in abstract examination, and then to become condescending when your argument fails to persuade.

    I give a damn about a lot of things, and in fact I give a damn about this thing in particular. But I don’t preface it with ‘I really don’t support this position’ because that is disingenuous.

    [Reply]

    Ron Reply:
    July 18th, 2011 at 7:24 am

    In common parlance, a devil’s advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, just for the sake of argument.

    ************************************************
    In taking such position, the individual taking on the devil’s advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. The purpose of such process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position.
    ***********************************************

    I was never condescending, except perhaps in my response to being called condescending, which was also what I was referring to when I implied she had gone to far. ***NOT*** to her defending her position.

    If I wanted to defend my own side to an argument, believe me, I would have no problem coming out and saying so. I’m MORE than capable of defending myself in an argument. And I have no qualms about expressing my own personal view when I feel it’s necessary or appropriate. I just wanted to have an interesting discussion on an interesting topic, which I did, and which I enjoyed, even if it did use up a fair amount of my spare time that day.

    When you find me in a public place letting my kid scream and carry on, feel free to call me a liar. Until then stfu, I was already done with this conversation.

    Ron Reply:
    July 18th, 2011 at 7:26 am

    Btw, the devil’s advocate definition was from wikipedia, (wouldn’t want to be accused of plagiarism on top of being condescending) not always the best source, but accurate enough for general use.

    Jess Reply:
    July 18th, 2011 at 7:39 am

    which…proves my point.

    Devil’s advocate is not taking the position of a passionate response. It’s dispassionate and intended to examine for weakness.

    Which you clearly were not in since you have strong feelings about the issue, which is clearly disingenuous.

    Jess Reply:
    July 18th, 2011 at 7:46 am

    also she didn’t tell call you condescending till after the ‘you’ve gone too far’ comment. So you -were- being condescending to her defending her position.

    Beyond that, it’s amazing to me that you seem to think that coming in here to ‘have an interesting discussion’ without knowing the party or their inclination for this sort of discussion..turning that discussion into personal insult and get all huffy when people call you out for being boorish is a viable use of your time.

    No one accused you of being a plagiarist, or even a liar.

    I am saying that you misused the term Devil’s Advocate, and that you behaved in a socially awkward manner in someone elses ‘living room’.

    However, since it is not -my- living room either, I’ll back myself out from further conversation as well and apologize to the host if my discussion offends her in any way.

    Enjoy your day.

    Ron Reply:
    July 18th, 2011 at 9:56 am

    The only “You’ve gone too far” comment I made was the one where I said “Now you’ve done it” which was a bit much I agree. However, it’s the first line, and easy to see that it’s a response to the prior comment which does in fact say that I was being condescending for claiming that she couldn’t know how she would react. It may have gotten a bit confusing based on the conversation splitting in a few places due to us responding to stuff at the same time, so my response my appear out of place. but I promise you it was a response to being called condescending.

    As for proving your point, you seem to be reading words that aren’t there. I see nothing that says a single word about being passionate or dispassionate or anything else that you mentioned. Also, this is not, and has not been, a black and white issue. I started out stating, and continue to stand by the fact, that I agree in almost all cases. Which means, YES in some cases I disagree. So I’m not 100% against my own position by taking the opposing. Devil’s advocate doesn’t REQUIRE or expect the person taking the position to be against it, it just ALLOWS them to.

    I didn’t say anyone accused me of being a plagiarist, I said I was attempting to prevent it from happening. Which was mostly a sarcastic way of carrying on with my being offended at being called condescending, but since you’ve insisted on carrying on that train, let’s put it to rest now:

    con·de·scend·ing/ˌkändəˈsendiNG/Adjective
    1. Acting in a way that betrays a feeling of patronizing superiority.
    2. (of an action) Demonstrating such an attitude. More »
    Dictionary.com – Answers.com – Merriam-Webster – The Free Dictionary

    At NO TIME WHATSOEVER have I implied that I’m better, or superior to anyone. If anything I’m protesting against the condescending nature of people who claim that non-leavers are horrible people. So please stop applying the term incorrectly.

    I am not, and have not been “huffy” with TJ, and this is NOT her living room, this is an internet blog, the only reason for having an internet blog is to make posts and see how people respond, nobody is required, or entitled to have an internet blog, I did not barge into her living room, or any other part of her home, this is a public place. She has been free to ask me to stop, or to simply not respond. She’s free to require people to register, or not allow comments at all if she doesn’t care what people think. If anything is ‘socially awkward’ it’s this personalization of a public space. And in retrospect, since you feel that way about it (however misplaced those feelings are), you are WAY out of line by calling me out at all. If you walked into MY living room, and called out one of MY guests I’d be pretty upset about it. Thanks for playing though.

    TJ Reply:
    July 18th, 2011 at 10:01 am

    You’re absolutely being rude and condescending at this point. You’ve said several times now that you’re finished with this discussion, but continue to validate my suspicion that you just! can’t! let go! if someone thinks you’re wrong. I feel like this is going to be an unending cycle for you, so for your own good, let’s just cut this off now. I feel embarrassed for you, and that’s uncomfortable for me.

    Thanks for playing.

    Jess Reply:
    July 18th, 2011 at 10:17 am

    It’s a last word thing for you Ron isn’t it?

    I bet it is.

63. By Ron on Jul 16, 2011

    Actually, you don’t quite seem to understand, I’m not necessarily trying to come up with such a situation, unless you have it happen to you, you can never REALLY know what you would do. It’s like saying, “you have two children in a burning building, there’s only time to save one, which one do you choose?” there’s no way to answer that. No way to know what you or anyone else would do unless it actually happened, and I would never want to find out.

    Now, as I said at the beginning, I agree for the most part and was playing devil’s advocate. My real point was, there’s more than one side, often more than two sides even, to every story. I guarantee that any time you’re out in public and you see a child that’s WAY to old to be having tantrums, having one, it’s a parent who gave in every time to avoid embarrassment or inconveniencing someone else. That said, I do agree with most of what you said, and would generally do the same things under the same circumstances. I’m not saying that it’s ok to sit there and do nothing while your kid has a screaming at the top of their lungs fit for 30 minutes in a restaurant. Our children are fairly well behaved in restaurants and theaters, our youngest is 7, we DID go see HP7p2 on opening night, in 3d. We did get our geeky official Harry Potter 3d glasses, which we did NOT recycle :) (we usually do of course) We had a good time. My point is, every child is different, and while it’s often the parent’s fault, it’s not always. Most of us are just doing the best we can with what we have, and not all of us have it as good as some. As for “the village”? you choose to be a part of raising children by living in society. We do not live in a vacuum, or a bubble, children are part of the world, and they do not always behave. You can choose to be a major part, and have your own, or volunteer for this or that. You can choose to have a minor part by putting up with some minor inconveniences from time to time in public places. You can choose to be offended and spoiled and obnoxious and look down on people who aren’t as lucky as you. There are lots of choices, and nobody’s situation is exactly the same as yours, or mine, so I try to be as tolerant and understanding as I can.

    [Reply]

    TJ Reply:
    July 16th, 2011 at 1:22 pm

    I did understand what you were saying the first time. I just did, and still do, disagree. Taking a child home when they’re misbehaving in public is only “giving in” if there are no consequences for the behavior. Believe me, if Penny is so misbehaved that we need to leave a public situation, going home is not the only consequence she’ll face.

    As for not knowing what I’ll do until I’m in the situation, that’s not true. I am telling you – my husband and I absolutely would not tolerate rude and disruptive behavior from our kid in a restaurant, store, etc. We wouldn’t. It’s a hard line with us. Telling us that we don’t actually know what we’d do is condescending. Before I had the baby, someone tried to tell me that I wouldn’t put my shopping cart away every time once I had the kid. Of course I will, and do, because it’s common courtesy, and children are not an excuse to throw manners out the window.

    I know children don’t always behave. My child’s poor behavior is my problem to deal with, not the rest of the world’s. A “minor inconvenience” is one thing. Embarrassing, disruptive and rude behavior is another, and simply won’t be tolerated.

    And of course there is more to one side of every story and there may be a reason I don’t know why someone ELSE’S kid is misbehaving, but I’m not talking about someone else’s kid. I’m talking about mine. And just like my parents with me, I would leave. They did it, and my brother, sister and I are exceedingly polite individuals who knew better than to behave poorly in public. I intend to do the same with my kid and have no reason not to expect the same results.

    Allowing your child to misbehave in public to the disruption of others, barring extremely special circumstances such as a special needs child, smacks of entitlement and selfishness. The world is your teaching environment for your kid only up to the point that it ruins things for others. Then the kid needs to be taught whatever lesson at home.

    [Reply]

    Ron Reply:
    July 16th, 2011 at 6:56 pm

    Ok, now you’ve done it:

    Once again you’re still missing the point, you seem to be arguing with me when I wasn’t arguing with you in the first place. First of all, your post talks about other people’s behavior in a certain situation, and how you would NEVER behave that way. I’m not the one being condescending, you are, and I’m not sure you understand the meaning of the word. Please do not insult me with a word you do not know how to use. The only way my saying “You can not know what you would do under X, Y, or Z circumstances” is condescending would be if I implied that *I* know what I would do, and therefore am somehow better than you. To be condescending, you have to imply superiority, I’m saying that NO ONE knows what they would do under another person’s circumstances, because the only way you would be in another person’s exact circumstances is if you made the exact same choices leading up to that time and event, in which case you would almost definitely continue to make the exact same choices because each and every choice we make is a culmination of every choice we’ve made so far… and that’s where we run into the problem. You claim to be talking about what YOU would do under a certain circumstance which you have never experienced and can not possibly understand. All I’m saying is that everyone’s circumstances are unique, and people should try to be considerate, and give people the benefit of the doubt when possible. In no way at any time have I tried to imply that it’s ok to let children behave in an extremely disruptive manner. There are many extremes of bad behavior, and a lot of middle ground, I’m saying that there are times when leaving is not the best way to deal with a situation, and that not all situations require leaving in order to be dealt with effectively.

    [Reply]

    TJ Reply:
    July 16th, 2011 at 7:16 pm

    Hahaha, now I’ve done it? Seriously?

    I’m not arguing with you, I’m disagreeing with you, and I continue to.

    I absolutely can tell you how I will raise my daughter. I absolutely can tell you how I will react if she makes a disruption in public. We left a restaurant just last night, actually, for the first time, because she was crying and we didn’t want to subject other diners to it. We took our food home.

    As for what you said and what you didn’t say:

    “And sometimes that means sitting there and being embarrassed and possibly making the situation less comfortable for someone else. This is one of those cases where the whole “it takes a village to raise a child” thing applies.”

    That, to me, implies that it’s all right – IMPORTANT, even – to let a child act disruptive in public so that you can avoid “giving in” by taking the child home, because giving in will only lead to the same behavior in the future. And the “it takes a village” reference meaning that other people will just have to deal with it, because we’re all in this together, right?

    No, for me, it NEVER means that. Never. It is never acceptable, in my mind, to ruin the experience of other diners (using the restaurant scenario in this case) because my kid is acting out and it “sucks” to eat in shifts or it’s inconvenient to take her home because I didn’t feel like cooking. Kids are inconvenient. Yes, there are special circumstances, as I said – special needs children being the main one – where it can’t be helped. However, your point in an earlier comment about some kids not being as well behaved as others? Yeah, those kids, the ones who can’t handle behaving in restaurants? They shouldn’t be in restaurants. You can absolutely teach your child to be a respectful, polite human being at home. He doesn’t need to be IN a restaurant to know how to eat, stay in his seat until he’s finished, and not throw things or scream. It’s a parent’s responsibility to teach that AT HOME before going out.

    TELL ME a circumstance where a screaming, disruptive, rude child in a restaurant shouldn’t be taken home or at least outside until they calm down, even if it means eating in shifts, or alone. Seriously. Name one.

    And again, don’t tell me I don’t know what I’ll do in any given situation. In this one, I absolutely do. They’re called principles. I stick to mine. Even when it’s no fun.

    When a kid is being a little brat in a restaurant and ruining MY meal, I definitely am offended. Does that make me obnoxious? Maybe, but not nearly as obnoxious as parents who think it’s okay for their child to ruin my meal.

    As for me missing the point, I’m not. You keep changing your point. I’ve disagreed with all of them. You seem to have a problem with me refusing to accept your point of view.

    [Reply]

    Ron Reply:
    July 16th, 2011 at 8:01 pm

    My point hasn’t changed, I’ve changed my approach in order to try to get you to see what I’m trying to say, which you still don’t but that’s ok, because I’m tired of trying, but it’s been fun, we should do this again some time.

    One last recap before I call it a night:

    My responses have never been about you, using that example with you in my first post was a bad idea because it made it seem like I was talking about you.

    Yes, you can say, “If MY kid was screaming in a restaurant I would walk out, or whatever”. What you can not do, is look at someone else’s situation, and look down on them for what they do or do not do and say “well if I was them, I would do this differently” because if you were them, you would do exactly what they are doing, because the only reason you would be in that exact situation, would be because you made the same choices and had the same factors and influences affecting your choices.

    And yes, under some circumstances I do believe a certain (relatively small) amount of inconvenience can and should be tolerated. Even if you were to instantly rush your child outside there would be some small amount of inconvenience to people who weren’t tolerant, and I feel some attempt should be made to correct the child’s behavior quickly and efficiently before rushing them out the door, now if all that fails within a reasonable amount of time, removing the child from the situation is the appropriate response. I did not say I disagree with the whole: restaurants not allowing young children in. Or that children and their disruptions should be tolerated everywhere. Or that leaving was never the correct course of action. In fact I started out by saying that I agree with you, and would do and have done the same thing on more than one occasion. I did start out, and repeated in at least one additional response, saying that I was playing “devil’s advocate” perhaps you are not familiar with the term. It’s used in debating to describe someone taking on an opposing viewpoint whether they agree with it or not, in order to present another view of a situation and further understanding of both sides.

    The points I have brought up that I do agree with are:

    You shouldn’t judge other people’s behavior based solely on your own experience, you must look beyond yourself and realize that you can’t possibly know everything that’s going on, and try to be tolerant, not judgmental.

    And that not all cases of misbehavior warrant ‘leaving’

    My point has never been to make you say there might be a circumstance under which you might allow your child to behave in such a way. My goal was to present another point of view and express that just because someone’s child misbehaves and they don’t immediately flee the area, they shouldn’t necessarily be vilified publicly and cursed to spend eternity in hell.

    TJ Reply:
    July 16th, 2011 at 7:22 pm

    And if I sound testy, I really don’t mean to, I’m just not sure to make MY point without using strong absolutes because… I feel extremely strongly on this subject – it’s no different than the way I was raised and I plan to stick to it as strictly as my parents did.

    [Reply]

    Ron Reply:
    July 16th, 2011 at 8:04 pm

    Which is part of my point, you had a good foundation to work with. Not everyone is so lucky, there are a lot of people with less than perfect parents, some with considerably horrible parents, they have to learn as they go and try to do better than they received. Kids don’t come with a handbook, and some people don’t have anything to go on. I try to assume that the vast majority of people are trying to do the best they can for and by their kids.

    Random Nerdfighter Reply:
    July 17th, 2011 at 12:50 pm

    Eleventy gallons of E-coke for you, TJ, because mansplainers suck donkey’s balls.

    As you were.

64. By Holly on Jul 16, 2011

    If you figure out how to make the “I don’t drink, but not for any particular reason” declaration any less awkward, please let me know. I’m in the same boat. I don’t drink because I have a genetic condition which makes my body not process things like alcohol and caffeine and red meat well. I try to avoid these things as a result.

    I even had a friend say that they appreciated going out with me because they didn’t feel like it was appropriate to get totally wasted with non-drinkers, and whenever they went out with their “drinker” friends they just drank until they couldn’t see straight. Most awkward compliment/situation ever.

    [Reply]

65. By Brook on Jul 16, 2011

    Your child’s head is tilty

    [Reply]

    TJ Reply:
    July 16th, 2011 at 5:35 pm

    Maybe your head is tilty, making her head APPEAR tilty. Did you think of that, tilty head?

    [Reply]

    sister Reply:
    July 18th, 2011 at 7:54 am

    HA! tilty head. watch what you say about my niece! or i will permanently tilt your head!

    [Reply]

    Ron Reply:
    July 16th, 2011 at 7:10 pm

    She’s 2 months old! Her head is supposed to be tilty, children that young have not developed the skills and muscle strength to maintain an upright posture. She’s adorable. And I have to agree with TJ’s response, it’s probably just you. :)

    [Reply]

66. By Superjules on Jul 16, 2011

    I didn’t drink in high school or, really, for the first couple years of college. People would give me weird looks and try and talk me into it but the fact was that I hated how all alcohol tasted. I thought it was gross. I do drink now, but I’m also perfectly happy ordering a Shirley Temple at a bar. That’s my go-to designated driver drink.

    I like how you stand your ground even when people try to argue with you (basically using variations of the JUST WAIT argument).

    [Reply]

    Staciepo Reply:
    July 17th, 2011 at 5:26 am

    My fiance is the same- he will drink juice-like wines, but after some time I realized he doesn’t like that alcohol bite/tang that most alcoholic drinks have. He just drinks soda like its his job!

    And I agree on the holding the ground thing- fabulous sticking your guns!

    [Reply]

67. By jonniker on Jul 17, 2011

    Adam doesn’t drink at all, and he deals with the same thing. We’re ADULTS with CHILDREN and people still get self-conscious around him because he doesn’t drink. HE DOESN’T LIKE IT. SO WHAT? I’m not a big drinker by any means (two glasses of wine, and I’ve got a hangover), but I DO drink, and HE DOES NOT CARE. I PROMISE.

    We’re leavers, too, unless we’re there with family and are stuck, which has happened twice. So what we end up doing is wandering around outside with her until we CAN leave. Believe me, that blows, because I think that does teach her that she can just not sit down for an entire meal and get to walk outside instead, which she loves. But not enough to force her to scream her way through dinner, my God.

    As for that restaurant, my only beef is that the age limit is six. I think four is probably more reasonable, as I know many, many four-year-olds who are more than capable of sitting through a meal. Five, too, is pretty mature, dinner-table-wise. But I get that he had to make the cutoff somewhere.

    The only thing I found funny about it is that it’s, um, not really a fine dining establishment. It’s a GOLF TAVERN, am I getting this right? I don’t know why that strikes me as hilarious, like he’s trying to turn his burger joint into Maison Robert.

    [Reply]

    jonniker Reply:
    July 17th, 2011 at 8:02 am

    And by “beef” I mean, well, he could have probably pissed fewer people off by going with four, but it’s not like I personally care. Honestly, we avoid going out with Sam at this age to ANYWHERE that is not super kid friendly, and by that I mean, Friendly’s. Food courts. Cracker Barrels. She’s TWO. Going to a restaurant with her — a full sit down one — is NOT FUN, if you are a parent who DOES care about the comfort of other patrons. You spend the whole time on Behavior Alert and preparing to Leave, if necessary.

    To the dude above who wants to teach their kid how to sit and behave in restaurants, DO IT IN A FRIENDLY’S OR A CRACKER BARREL. Or a food court. Seriously. These are excellent places to reinforce good behavior without risking other people’s meal enjoyment. WITHIN REASON, of course. Don’t think I haven’t left a Friendly’s, because I totally have.

    [Reply]

68. By Home Sweet Sarah on Jul 17, 2011

    Okay, I’m back (and still curious about the Ken doll.)

    I wrote a post about this recently, the to leave or not to leave debate, and while I certainly believe I’m a Leaver, I do have an internal checklist I’d go through first. (Unless she was SCREAMING, in which case, duh, Leave.)

    Also, we’ve been really taking advantage of the newborn stage and taking her places that probably aren’t kid-friendly. No late night (or anytime) movies, but day trips to Napa, nice lunches, etc. Last night (early evening) we took her on a speakeasy tour. We just know that we might be leaving at any moment and are okay with that.

    I guess I have the “my money’s still green” mentality and figure if our kid isn’t bothering anyone (and by this I mean, she is sleeping nearly the entire time), then there’s no reason a baby shouldn’t be able to sit in her seat next to the table while I have a glass of champagne.

    The other day we went to lunch and an older couple walked in and had their choice of sitting by us or by a couple with two young kids. You could see them debating: Baby or kids, baby or kids? They really didn’t want to sit by EITHER of us, but ultimately sat by us and by the end of the meal, were quite charmed by LG’s good behavior.

    I just don’t like people assuming that because there’s a baby seat, that automatically means a loud and disruptive meal, you know? Yes, I’ll take my baby to a restaurant, but I’m not an asshole who’ll let her sit there and scream.

    I also still return my shopping cart.

    [Reply]

    TJ Reply:
    July 17th, 2011 at 10:51 am

    We are the SAME WAY with taking advantage of the newborn thing. We take Penny EVERYWHERE. She sleeps through everything or just looks around. She got fussy at dinner the other night and we decided to leave, both because personally, I find the crying of newborns who are not my own to be quite piercing, and also because she was hungry. But yeah, I agree with you. I don’t need to get the hairy eyeball from people BEFORE my kid starts being a pain. I don’t even think twice about sitting near children and babies until they start to act up.

    [Reply]

69. By Danell on Jul 17, 2011

    I still can’t get behind comparing a restaurant to the grocery store. Two totally different scenarios. Yes, we are leavers. We RARELY attempt restaurants and would ALWAYS leave at the drop of a hat if needed. But the grocery store? Well, there was one horrifying, terrible time that I didn’t…COULDN’T…leave.

    My first child is the reason we wanted 3 kids. He was a perfect baby, and is still a good kid. My second child is the reason we won’t have 3- if I had another like her I probably wouldn’t survive. She isn’t special needs but she is “spirited.”. We are in a perpetual state of exhaustion raising her. And yes, I have always had standards about how I would raise kids, what I would allow and not allow, the types of punishments I would use, etc…and I absolutely try to stick with those. I have spent many, many nights sobbing because she makes me feel like a horrible parent. Even MY MOM, whom I was ALWAYS on the same page with regarding parenting, causes me frustration. I HAVE NOT SUDDENLY CHANGED MY PARENTING BELIEFS, THIS KID REALLY IS JUST THIS HARD.
    For example, there was an evening after work when I ended up at the grocery store, both kids in the cart, completely exhausted, husband out of town, cart also FULL of groceries when she decided to have a meltdown…and I just couldn’t take the thought of leaving: there were no groceries in the house, no one to watch the kids if I were to abandon the cart and come back later (like we normally would do), and I was just SO TIRED. So frankly, I didn’t really care at that point if I ruined the other shoppers checking out experience. I didn’t want to have to come back and start all over again. (Not to mention my very excellent son has to get drug out of stores as an innocent by-stander to his sisters behavior). So I just stood there sobbing, checking out with one hand while wrangling my beastly child with the other. It was, quite frankly, one of the worst evenings of my life. I really have leaned a little more towards Ron’s camp since then.

    [Reply]

    TJ Reply:
    July 17th, 2011 at 12:08 pm

    Well, again, special circumstances. I’m not saying you have a special needs child, but from the sound of it, wouldn’t you say she’s a pretty… uncommon child? And I mean that in the nicest possible way, of course. You know what I mean. You say she’s a challenge. She sounds pretty unique, as far as the average kid goes.

    There are assholes out there who think any noise, any tantrum from a kid is terrible and shouldn’t happen in public, and I do admit that screeching and crying and carrying on DOES get under my skin, but I’m a pretty average person so I have to assume most people are like me. Is it annoying? Yes, of course. In any situation. But as I said, there ARE special circumstances, and I think the average person – like myself – can look and assess reasonably fairly. A kid pitching a fit at a restaurant table while his parents have some drinks and ignored him? Now I’m annoyed AND pissed at the asshole parents. A mother doing her flat out damndest to wrestle a child through the checkout and out of the store under extremely trying circumstances? I’d like to think that most (not all, of course, but most) people are like me and, even if annoyed by the sound (because, come on, I can’t really turn THAT off), it’s tempered by some understanding.

    Of course this blog post was a generalization and can’t cover every circumstance ever, which is how bloggers always end up getting into arguments (I’m sorry, “discussions”) with people like Ron. It’s the nature of blogging, I can’t (and kind of don’t want to have to) account for every possible individual set of circumstances just to write a post. However, I do think something like that is covered under “special circumstances,” and I do think the average person (again, not all) is prepared to cut slack where slack-cutting is warranted, you know?

    [Reply]

    Danell Reply:
    July 17th, 2011 at 12:38 pm

    I know, I’m sorry…I wasn’t really trying to contribute to any arguments. I just feel a lot of angst now, having this kid. Because I really do have the same standards and beliefs you describe. She just makes it really hard. Karma kickin’ me in the ass, I guess. :)

    [Reply]

    jonniker Reply:
    July 17th, 2011 at 12:39 pm

    I honestly think the game changes completely when you have two kids. I do. And I tend to be more lenient in places like the grocery store, or even the mall, if a kid is throwing a fit. In that case, I don’t know that I would necessarily be a Leaver (I haven’t had to be in that spot, as my kid loves shopping, most of the time). I had one incident where Sam laid down and threw a fit while we were checking out at Target, but hell if I was going to be a Leaver when I was already leaving.

    Grocery stores, Target, etc., I tend to give parents the freedom to discipline their kids there, even if it means letting them throw a fit to the detriment of other shoppers. I feel like there is a difference there — at a restaurant, you’re paying for a peaceful experience. You are PAYING for the experience of eating out. If my grocery shopping experience is made slightly less pleasant by a kid throwing a fit in an aisle I am free to leave and move on to a different aisle. At a restaurant, OH HELL NO.

    At restaurants, here’s where I am a total hypocritical hairy-eyeball type. I will SPECIFICALLY ASK to be seated nowhere near children at a restaurant when I am out without my child. The reason being is that I am paying OUT THE ASS, not just for the restaurant, but for a babysitter so that I can have a child-free evening. I know I am a total doucheface here, but I don’t want to be seated next to a newborn. Or a toddler. Or even a five-year-old. I want to be in my own fantasy land where no children exist.

    I KNOW.

    [Reply]

    Kate Reply:
    July 18th, 2011 at 9:48 am

    Even though I described myself as a leaver earlier, this makes me think of a time I didn’t leave the grocery store. I had my three year old and my infant, and the infant was getting hungry, so started crying (and he’s an incredibly loud baby), and the three year old was just…I don’t know, not being horrible, but not being good, either. She kept getting in people’s way, and whining about wanting ice cream, and not listening, and between that and the baby crying I was more or less a frazzled mess. I was still getting used to having two of them.

    I didn’t leave, though. My husband wasn’t around, and I needed to buy dinner and get home to feed the baby. So I did, we left, and order was restored.

    In a restaurant, though – there has never been extenuating circumstance. And I’ve left non-grocery stores before, too.

    [Reply]

    Ron Reply:
    July 18th, 2011 at 7:42 am

    Unfortunately TJ you might be surprised how many ‘average’ people DON’T cut anyone some slack, and would have looked at her situation the same way you and most of the people agreeing with you sounded in your blog and their responses. Which is like anyone letting their child behave like that, and continuing to go about their business is a horrible person, a horrible parent, a horrible member of society, and I’m sure there were people in that grocery store giving her dirty looks and whispering horrible things about her the whole time… As if she wasn’t already embarrassed and feeling bad enough in general.

    Now, there are people who let their kids run wild and wreck stuff, misbehave in all sorts of unruly ways, be disruptive and even somewhat violent. Those people I have no sympathy for. And of course like everything there are different levels, for example, I’d “leave” Olive Garden or Red Lobster (Both of which DO have children’s menus.. with crayons and such :) btw) a lot faster than I’d leave the Play Place at Mcdonalds if my kid was acting up.

    [Reply]

    Ron Reply:
    July 18th, 2011 at 7:43 am

    I meant to add somewhere in there that this is exactly why I felt a need to post an opposing view.

    [Reply]

70. By Jo on Jul 17, 2011

    I love you. That is all.

    [Reply]

71. By drhoctor2 on Jul 17, 2011

    I’m a leaver. I’ll even leave w/ your kids if necessary. I put it down to my laziness tho, lazy parenting proponent here. Am I going to be incredibly stressed out and have to lay down a bunch of disiplinary stuff that I will have to follow thru on for (possibly) days ?( I follow thru )is my self questionaire. If the answer is even remotely yes-possible, other plans are made.
    I protest the “takes a village ” thing. Nope. No, it does not . It takes me raising my kids. The village can raise their own damn kids. I GOT this. I, also, have no right whatsoever to make another person uncomfortable in public esp. if they’re PAYING money for being there.
    As for alcohol, not drinking usually here also. I go with.. I don’t like the effect. I do love Swistles come back, tho.
    Someone mentioned children in bars. I am the asshole who will go to the bartender, manager,that parent… whoEVER and make them leave. MAKE THEM LEAVE. Back in my pre kid days the only place I could be sure would be kid free was a bar. NO KIDS here. Thank you and done. Have alkie mom in background which only inflames my righteous get that kid outta here syndrome for real. But, really, I don’t want to interact with kids? A bar oughta be a sure bet.

    [Reply]

    Alexa Reply:
    July 17th, 2011 at 3:53 pm

    Dr. H:

    I am a DEFINITE leaver/not-taker (at a certain age, Simone was basically feral and not fit for human company). Now that she is older and able to behave like a reasonably rational being we take her out more often, and one of our favorite places (nearby, veggie options for my husband) is, technically speaking, a bar. But! It is a bar attached to a fancy restaurant–we would never take her into the fancy restaurant itself, and when we go to the bar we always, always, ALWAYS head to the (empty at such an early hour) basement lounge, specifically so she will not disturb the patrons of the bar-proper with her incessant-questioning-that-devolves-into-ontology about when the French fries will arrive. Is this wrong? (I wasn’t aware of the bar rule! I strive to Not Annoy!) I am sort of retroactively mortified now.

    [Reply]

    drhoctor2 Reply:
    July 17th, 2011 at 6:03 pm

    Alexa !! Hey, read your blog and love your writing. Simone is the precious !!I’m feeling all gushy that you replied to me even if I retro mortified you !!
    Anyway, I think you’ve got one of my few exceptions here…Early hours, neighborhood, fancy restaurant attached..like a VFW picnic or Fairgrounds Beer tent ..it’s kind of excluded from my list of.. “I’m here for the adults ONLY ambiance and I don’t ever want kids around when I’m drinking” deal. Not that I was always in dive bars or such but “adult beverages available” places and rock and roll or pool table bars are separate categories for me. I kind of put some sports bars in family friendly categories if you know what I mean ? So, feel free to demortify and enjoy the near to endless wait for french fries. (love Simone, for real, the cutiest !!)

    [Reply]

72. By Carla Hinkle on Jul 17, 2011

    What this topic reminds me is that I (and I’m not saying YOU, but me) have been not very reliable in predicting what Parenting Standards I’ll stick to through thick and thin, and which I have abandoned at the side of the road.

    Before I had kids, I had a bunch of Parenting Standards. Now that I actually HAVE kids, I have less. Some things — including, generally, leaving when kids melt down in a restaurant — I stick to pretty firmly. Or bedtime. Pre-kids, I always thought “Kids should have a firm bedtime! Get them down at the same, reasonable hour every night! Adults have adult time!” And I really do still believe this one, and pretty much stick with it.

    Others, not so much. I used to think “TV is awful! Children should not watch TV! Or as little as possible and only educational!” This one has sloooowly slipped over the years and now I TRY to limit TV but deep in my heart, I just don’t care that much anymore if the kids watch TV.

    This is not exactly here nor there, but before I had kids, I honestly couldn’t have predicted that Firm Bedtime would stick and No TV would go the way of the dodo. I’m not saying your being a Leaver won’t stick, as I’m generally a Leaver too and it has stuck, and I have many Parenting Standards that have lasted. But it has been an interesting “journey” (for lack of a less douche-y word) that I have been a poor self-predictor of what would stick and what wouldn’t.

    [Reply]

    drhoctor2 Reply:
    July 17th, 2011 at 6:14 pm

    As Veronica mentioned, I’m more “tolerant” of my own and others kids lesser melt downs in grocery stores. I DO judge the beejeezusses out of the parents tho’, I do agree with TJ”s assessment of giving the kid attention, I see a lot of kids acting up/out because or while their parents are studiously ignoring them. Cause and effect, there, I think.
    I know kids hit an age where you really can’t take them anywhere. Round 2 ish for my guys. Walmart at Christmas type stuff where they just can’t handle not being able to get at whwt they see. Developmental vs bad parebnt..bad kid.
    I didn’t have kids till I was 30, we had a younger set born in my family when I was 11 and I made a virtual FORTUNE babysitting back in the day..all this to say that actually, in my case, MOST of what I thought I would stick to, I stuck to. Only, I think, because I’d already had so much experience w/ little kids so I understood that it’s a flexible parenting line that seems to work in many situations.
    I look more back on the ..when I thought of the things I would say to my kids.. “If you put the dog’s testicles in your brother’s face AGAIN you’re off the nintendo when we get home !! ” never came up.

    (He was grounded off the nintendo when we got home…guess it was worth it….:)

    [Reply]

73. By Josefina on Jul 18, 2011

    I had friends who were leavers, and I felt like their daughter would just start acting really bratty when she wanted to leave somewhere, which irritated me. I feel that I’m a semi-leaver because I try to remove the kid to a more private location (car, private room, etc) to get himself together, but darned if we are leaving altogether because he decided he doesn’t feel like being there. There are other people in the family besides the child, and our children need to learn they don’t always get to dictate what we do. That said, we did not really go nice places when they were little, and by nice places I mean non-fast-food restaurants, or even nicer stores. As they got older, we gradually introduced them to nicer places with a deliberate objective to train them how to behave there. I think, though, that the way you plan to Leave makes me re-think the policy. Leaving PLUS consequences at home seems like it could work very well.

    I have recently become a non-drinker (I also get the muscle soreness and queasy feeling that Swistle mentioned), and I have only had to decline alcohol in public once so far. Yes, the people became pretty desperate for me to drink. It was uncomfortable.

    [Reply]

    Ron Reply:
    July 18th, 2011 at 8:33 am

    This is also something I was trying to get at, a lot of people don’t realize how manipulative kids can be. They quickly learn what happens when they do certain things, “Hey, if I make a scene when I’m someplace I don’t want to be, I get to leave!” And yes, doing the whole, ‘straight to your room’ thing when we get home CAN help, but kids quickly learn that stuff too, and what do you do when any reasonable punishment isn’t enough to prevent them from misbehaving?

    And it starts from the moment they are born. Infants that are required to stay in intensive care have to be taught to cry, they don’t get that, “When I cry, mommy or daddy will come check on me” feedback, so they simply don’t cry. Which might sound like a wonderful thing, and is where some of that “Just ignore it” crap comes from. The truth is, once they’ve learned the behavior, the normally use it when they NEED something, changed, fed, or just attention. Which is why they actually want you to teach the baby to cry in those situations. But anyway I’m getting into a whole other subject here.

    The point is, and always has been: “Leaving is fine, and good, and wonderful, but it’s not always the best course of action for every situation” You need to assess your situation, the environment, yourself, and your child(ren).

    Anyway, I didn’t intend to continue writing on this but it was nice to see some people who actually see some of the stuff I was talking about.

    I do not, and am not saying it’s ok to, allow my children to be disruptive for any length of time in a location where it’s completely inappropriate.

    Let’s go into a good example I’ve seen sort of come up, someone mentioned Christmas time and shopping with young children. Our youngest went through a phase where every time he saw something he wanted, and couldn’t have it, he would have a fit. People claim that you can teach all this behavior without leaving the house, here is where I call BS. How do you teach a child that he can’t have every toy on the shelf at home? Once in a while we’d get him something, he was little, and he was being good, so the idea was to reward him for that. That quickly turned into “I should get a toy every time we go shopping” which wasn’t happening, even if we could have afforded it. So we had to deal with several embarrassing shopping excursions (and even an occasional leaving with a shopping cart full of crap) ourselves in order for him to learn the lesson that no means no. But if we had left every time he never would have learned to make it through shopping without getting a toy. But now we can go through a store and say no without any of that (there will occasionally be some pouting or sulking involved), while I still see kids from 7 to teenage years pitching fits about not getting something.

    And I’ve carried on some more, ok, it was nice chatting with you all, some more than others but it’s been fun in any case.

    [Reply]

74. By Nancy P on Jul 18, 2011

    I love this post! I agree with you 100% on both topics.
    re: the drinking thing. I DRIVES ME CRAZY when people “insist” that someone else drinks. WTF?
    I do drink but I can take it or leave it and do not care one bit if other people are drinking or not. This topic almost gets me more riled up than the kid one. Oy but don’t get me started. :)

    [Reply]

75. By Nona on Jul 18, 2011

    This must be said: Your baby girl is beyond adorable.

    Your plan to be a “leaver” is a good one. I raised my daughter that way and she learned to behave properly in public.

    [Reply]

76. By Marie Green on Jul 18, 2011

    Oh man, I’m going to have to come back later and read these comments, as I assume they are awesome, but I don’t have time now.

    Just wanted to say 2 things: 1. We’re leavers, too. Or “take outside and shape-it-uppers”. Luckily, our kids have behaved poorly enough to actually leave only a few times (usually a talk outside or a threat of consequence is enough) (and luckily our babies were not public screamers). However, in the case of a cart full of groceries, I think I would stay and pay for the groceries. I mean, usually there’s something (or SEVERAL SOMETHINGS) in that cart that I need TODAY, and I’m not so worried about another person’s grocery shopping experience to avoid subjecting them to a few minutes of my kid crying while I finished up business. Luckily, it hasn’t really happened that my kid(s) made a MAJOR scene in a grocery store.

    2. I have several friends that don’t drink and I don’t think anything of it. But if I think back, upon FIRST learning that they don’t drink, I did wonder one of the two things you said. I wish I didn’t, but I DID!

    [Reply]

77. By cindy w on Jul 18, 2011

    I don’t know that I am a Leaver, so much as I am a “remove the child from the scene and give her a stern talk in order to correct the behavior.” Then when she’s ready to act like a normal member of society, we resume what we were doing.

    My kid is the type that usually has a meltdown as we’re already leaving (especially at Target, I get the, “But I want to go look at the toooooys again!!” fit), so in that case, the Leaving is implied. But I have had to carry her out of more than one store. Not so much now that she’s 4, but that 2 year-old phase was ROUGH, man.

    It’s a weird thing, though, now that I have kids myself (ha, kidS, it still weirds me out to see that word in plural form). When I see a child having a tantrum in public? My reaction is not to blame the parents or think that the kid is a miscreant. Honestly, my main thought is, “Oh thank God that it isn’t my kid this time.”

    [Reply]

    Delicia Reply:
    July 18th, 2011 at 9:47 am

    Honestly, my main thought is, “Oh thank God that it isn’t my kid this time.”

    Yep, I usually have a mixture of pity, annoyance, and RELIEF that I don’t have to deal with it.

    [Reply]

    Jo Reply:
    July 18th, 2011 at 10:08 am

    “Oh thank God that it isn’t my kid this time.”

    AMEN to that.

    [Reply]

78. By Sarah Lena on Jul 18, 2011

    I DON’T THINK YOU UNDERSTAND ME BECAUSE YOU’RE NOT YET AGREEING WITH ME, DUMBASS.

    (A little late to this party, but man, it made for awesome Monday morning reading.)

    [Reply]

79. By Jo on Jul 18, 2011

    If we all just agree to agree with Ron do you think he will stop talking?

    [Reply]

80. By Jo on Jul 18, 2011

    Oh nevermind. Sounds like he’s been put down for his nap. ;)

    [Reply]

81. By Halloweenlover on Jul 18, 2011

    yes, leaver here too, although I’m with Jonna and it does depend on the place/situation. Like, mcdonalds? Sorry, I’ll probably stay, even if that elderly couple is giving me dirty looks. Josie is a LOUD TALKER and I need places where we can practice our quiet voice. supermarket I generally stay, unless it is ridiculously egregious behavior.

    The thing that irritated me about that no kids rule is that I had a baby/toddler who was AMAZING in restaurants. Excellent and incredible, and loves food and eats everything. I have been thanked countless times for his amazing behavior in restaurants and airplanes and all that. Incidentally, this was not of my doing. He came out like this. Anyway, if there was somewhere we wanted to go and were told we couldn’t because of gabe, I would have been annoyed. And the no kids in first class thing also annoys me for the same reason, although it’s not like I ever travel first class, but regardless, it’s the principle.

    I just feel like there are plenty of adults who annoy me and I can’t institute rules against them, and they don’t even have the excuse that they are kids! Just assholes. I feel like lately there is a lot of general intolerance abounding with people, and maybe we need to tone it down a notch. And this is coming from a parent who is very concerned about her kid bothering other people.

    [Reply]

82. By Halloweenlover on Jul 18, 2011

    Oh oh oh, and I forgot! I also don’t drink and am often put in the same position! I’ve found that saying “I don’t really like alcohol” generally gets people to back off. Sometimes they’ll argue with me about maybe I would like wine or liquor or whatever, but mostly they let it go.

    [Reply]

83. By Megan on Jul 18, 2011

    I am somewhat of a leaver, but somewhat not. And my husband doesn’t always agree about discipline, which makes it challenging.

    Example, when my 2.5 daughter started spitting on her plate at a dinner out (at IHOP, thank God) a couple of weeks ago – you can bet she was removed to the car. And she was upset about it.

    However, if she started acting up when I had a full cart at the grocery store (when I’m there with my infant), you can bet I am NOT leaving without my groceries. It’s hard enough to get through that once a week, let alone have to do it twice. And if the cart is full, we are pretty close to leaving already.

    I think parenting is situational and you have to do what the situation calls for. If leaving would have an effect or solve the situation, then yes, we would leave. But I think you need to anticipate – my child can be wonderfully well behaved in nice restaurants, or miserable in fast food places.

    We do our best to make it work so that everyone enjoys themselves – we go out earlier, when the parent/children crowd is out, we go to more family places. But I also have the “my money is green too” feeling and just because my child is being a little silly, I shouldn’t have to cut my night short. And generally my kid is pretty well behaved.

    [Reply]

84. By Halloweenlover on Jul 18, 2011

    Oh and last thing… When gabe was a baby I used to go to Starbucks to sit with him and maybe a friend and there were always tons of moms with babies in the mornings on weekdays. Anyway, I needed to change gabe’s diaper and there was no changing table so I asked if there was a comment form where I could suggest they get one, what with all the moms and kids whose money you are happily taking. Anyway, the barista looks at me and says, “oh, we’re not really looking to encourage that clientele.”. WTF? at Starbucks?

    [Reply]

85. By Elise on Jul 18, 2011

    I love everything about this post, including the comment war. As someone without children, but also as someone who turns to a puddle of adoring goo near anyone under age five, I appreciate you parenting style. I love children. I even love other people’s children. I love them so much, I’m not willing to let/watch them grow up to be assholes. Also, I do not love the sound of screaming, no matter what age or situation. So, thanks for all of this!

    [Reply]

86. By Dolores on Jul 19, 2011

    I’ve only skimmed the comments, but you keep saying “oh, well, that’s a special circumstance”. How do you know the circumstance of every child throwing a fit in the grocery store in order to judge them and find them lacking compared to your own impeccable skill?

    Believe me, no one plans to have to deal with a tantrumming child in the supermarket, and everyone tries to choose the sweet spot to take them, but having food in the house is non-negotiable, and not everyone has built in child care to go to the supermarket on their own.

    [Reply]

87. By Dolores on Jul 19, 2011

    “TELL ME a circumstance where a screaming, disruptive, rude child in a restaurant shouldn’t be taken home or at least outside until they calm down, even if it means eating in shifts, or alone. Seriously. Name one.”

    When you’re travelling, jet lagged and hungry and there are two kids and one adult.

    [Reply]

88. By Rebecca on Jul 19, 2011

    I am definitely in hermit mode here with kids so small. I don’t like to take them anywhere not kid friendly because, frankly, it is a pain in the ass for ME. There are some situations, though, that cannot be avoided — occasionally groceries must be bought and recently, I took a 4 year old and a 6 month old on an airplane, which was about as fun as it sounds. This is why I love drive-throughs. Incidentally, my husband is judgy about drive-throughs (like, you must be lazy to not get out of your car) and insists on taking the kids in, and I ask WHY??? Why do that to yourself and everyone else?

    [Reply]

89. By RD on Jul 23, 2011

    I’ve never been a big alcohol drinker, I tried a bunch of different drinks as a teenager (drinking age is 18 here) but I don’t like the taste or the expense and I’ve never felt that alcohol needs to be involved for something to be fun. In college I joined in with plenty of drinking games, I just drank soda instead of alcohol, none of my friends minded and I had as much fun as any of them with none of the ill effects the next day. However, I was on medication at the time that didn’t allow me to drink alcohol, my friends all knew so there was no pressure to drink.

    Now I’m no longer on the same medication and I am able to drink but I choose not too. Like you I don’t want to lie about my reason for not drinking but it can turn into such a thing when we’re out with people who don’t know me well and they’re really convinced people can only have fun if they drink alcohol. My fiance does drink (he’s 6’6″ and can handle his liquor) so I’m (quite happily) DD if we’re driving somewhere. Often times that’s enough of an excuse but sometimes even then people will try to convince me to have “just one”. It’s really very annoying!

    [Reply]

90. By Widelawns on Aug 1, 2011

    You forgot one of my favorite responses to not drinking (I’m breastfeeding too but don’t drink even when I’m not).

    I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been asked:

    “Are you a Mormon?”

    [Reply]

91. By motheroad on Sep 14, 2011

    DUH! When you have a kid, things CHANGE. If you don’t WANT things to change, WHY HAVE A KID?

    [Reply]

1. 1 Trackback(s)

2. Jul 18, 2011: Unrelated.